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Dynamism with the Art

Author Topic: Dynamism with the Art  (Read 3314 times)

Offline JWMTN

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Dynamism with the Art
« on: January 25, 2016, 11:20:42 PM »
Hi y'all, long time browser, first time posting something beyond a "hello."

Question I've got is in regards to kajukenbo and the level of dynamism in it. In other words, how much can you change a Pinan, or a grab art/punch counter? Were they meant to be static in nature and never changing, or was the evolution of the art implied from the get go? I can't remember where, but, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember Sijo saying that as long as the grab arts, punch counters, and Palama sets were there, it was kajukenbo... Period. With that logic, the door seems wide open to a range of instructor preference and discretion, but are the core items mentioned above as dynamic as the general theory?

Sorry if it's been asked before, but I'm looking forward to the input.

Thanks
Sifu Jake McCalmon
TN Kajukenbo
Kajukenbo Kenpo-Karate Association

Lineage:
Reyes -> Nahoolewa -> Park
 
3rd degree Kajukenbo
1st Degree American Karate

Offline Dave Jones

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Re: Dynamism with the Art
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2016, 11:58:16 AM »
I wasn't taught the Pinans or traditional grab arts but it has been a long time since someone said or implied what I trained and taught was "not Kajukenbo".
I personally feel that the lineage and the "mindset" is what makes us Kajukenbo, not the collection of techniques.

Case in point I doubt that the Traditional, Chuan Fa, WKHD, Tum Pai, Gaylord, Ramos and other methods all still retain all of the same / original techniques, strategies and tactics taught in Palama Settlement Gym in the early 50's.

I feel that Kajukenbo needs to continue to evolve today just like it did 60 years ago, but some people disagree.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2016, 12:08:15 PM by Dave Jones »
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Offline B DAVIES

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Re: Dynamism with the Art
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2016, 02:42:55 PM »
Good topic,
My linage went Tony Ramos to Joe Clarke, which Joe Clark modified the material to fit him. His student changed the material to fit his ideas and that was Jon Loren, head of Tum Pai. My instructor Terry Faircloth took the material he learned from Joe Clarke and merged with WHKD. So It was a blend of Ramos and WHKD. I learned Joe Clarke's version of the Ramos method and was there for the merger of the WHKD. I took all that I learned from my up line and added police uses of force applications and training ideas and tactics from the other martial arts I studied on the side. So to  keep striving to improve, improves the art and improves your students, just my thoughts.

WADR
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Offline Dave Jones

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Re: Dynamism with the Art
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2016, 02:47:41 PM »
of the WHKD. I took all that I learned from my up line and added police uses of force applications and training ideas and tactics from the other martial arts I studied on the side. So to  keep striving to improve, improves the art and improves your students, just my thoughts.

WADR
Professor Davies


+1 
Thank you for putting it so well, Professor.
Dave Jones, CQB Kajukenbo Club - Fenton, MO
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Offline Mitch Powell

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Re: Dynamism with the Art
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2016, 01:05:52 AM »
I would think that in order to fall under the Kajukenbo umbrella the techniques should at least follow the concept of combining movements from karate, judo, jujitsu, kenpo and boxing--American and Chinese. That was how the art was created and why it was given the name Ka-Ju-Ken-Bo. That said, Kajukenbo has no single one way only version. Sijo was always creative which is probably why early students like Al Dacascos, Tony Ramos,  Charles Gaylord, etc were all so creative themselves.
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Offline B DAVIES

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Re: Dynamism with the Art
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2016, 03:53:28 PM »
It's like going to the food court at the mall and saying I am only going to eat American or Chinese foods. Think about all the other flavors you miss out on, thank God Emperado and our other greats decided to explore and push themselves past the basic knowledge. Kajukenbo is great and as long as we keep pushing ourselves we will remain a great art. Good topic and insights from everyone.
Professor Bryan Davies
Master instructor law enforcement Wa.
Kajukenbowa.com

Offline envisiontj

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Re: Dynamism with the Art
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2016, 12:29:20 AM »
I agree all the way around, in general, but GM Powell specifically.  If we want to be considered Kajukenbo, (of course coming from a legitimate Kajukenbo line first), we need to maintain the ideas and principles that formed Kajukenbo.  In essence, the techniques should be the same, in expression they may vary.  The cohesiveness of Ka Ju Ken Bo as GM Powell stated.  Along with that, I would like to add "training methods".  Hard training, real training, NO bowing down to commercialism and selling belts.  That's not to say that all students will undergo the same level of training, as consideration must be made for health/Physical abilities/mental capacity/etc.  There is also the need to keep the doors open, so that we may be able to impact more and more lives.  Just something to keep in mind.  Its is hard to call ourselves Kajukenbo and then whine when we take a little contact or bleed a little.  Keep it "martial".

So, in conclusion, my opinion, is the combination of the varied Arts as a cohesive single Art and maintaining the training essence.  With that said, I was always taught that one could adjust and adapt techniques in training AFTER 5th degree, earned legitimately all the way up, not an honorary level up.  By that point, one should have the training, foundation, and discernment to be able to understand when and where to make adjustments.

Just my thoughts.
Sifu Trent Junker
Realm Of The Tiger Kajukenbo - Portland, OR
Under GM Gerry Scott

Offline Dave Jones

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Re: Dynamism with the Art
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2016, 08:19:26 AM »
If we want to be considered Kajukenbo, (of course coming from a legitimate Kajukenbo line first), we need to maintain the ideas and principles that formed Kajukenbo.  In essence, the techniques should be the same, in expression they may vary.  The cohesiveness of Ka Ju Ken Bo as GM Powell stated.  Along with that, I would like to add "training methods".  Hard training, real training, NO bowing down to commercialism and selling belts.  ... Its is hard to call ourselves Kajukenbo and then whine when we take a little contact or bleed a little.  Keep it "martial".
Agreed, Sigung Trent.  That is what I refer to as "mindset" - the "Spirit" of Mind-Body-Spirit.
To me, "Spirit" has nothing to do with a soul, religion or anything supernatural.  It is the "Fighting Spirit".

My opinion is that the techniques and tactics may change, but the Principles rarely do.
The Principles might change (in theory) because something has been proven not to work or to be inefficient, but how many people go hard enough to truly pressure test things anymore?
I have said before that some people in Kajukenbo are coasting along on the legend of how tough Kaju was instead of training hard enough to ensure it still is.

The two Kajukenbo Principles I feel should never change is that tactics (1) should be efficient and (2) should be tested/proven to work.

I think Dan Tyrell is the one I first heard say: "There is a big difference between training with a resisting opponent and always training with a partner who is pretending to resist."
You have to learn the techniques, but then you need to test them and build confidence with them under stress.

Oh well.  Just my opinion.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2016, 12:45:06 PM by Dave Jones »
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Offline Mitch Powell

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Re: Dynamism with the Art
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2016, 08:26:20 PM »
I've done a lot of research over the years breaking down the Emperado method of Kajukenbo with the intention of trying to better understand what Sijo Emperado created at that time in his life. I've shared that research on other posts and in articles but in a nutshell Sijo's early method of Kajukenbo kenpo-karate has approx. 104 techniques (21 punch, 15, grab, 15 knife, 13 club, 8 two-man, 6 three-man, & 26 Alphabets or advanced punch counters). For the most part the techniques are a blend of Kenpo-karate and jujitsu with striking used approximately 60 percent of the time and grappling used the other 40 percent. When faced with multiple attackers Sijo used striking. When faced with a knife or club Sijo used grappling. The majority of time the attacker throws a right boxer punch when executing an attack. Only the grab counters and the last 3 Three-man counters have the attacker putting their hands on you. So, if asked what is Kajukenbo? That would be my answer if we are talking about the hardline Kajukenbo Kenpo-Karate created by Sijo Emperado. The art changed as it became Ch'uan fa, as it became Tum Pai, as it became Won Hop Kuen Do............etc. 

In looking at my research, I would say Sijo was not that worried about someone putting their hands on him. It appears he was more concerned with being hit by a boxer and he should have been. When he created these techniques Sijo had Peter Choo and Frank Ordonez throwing punches at him. Both were on the army boxing team, and by that time Choo had already fought in the ring about 100 times. Yes, Peter Choo was a very accomplished boxer. Then once the initial group separated in 1949, Sijo had a new guy throwing punches at him named Marino Tiwanak, who was not only a good boxer, he was a professional boxer. So let's take a look at how boxing influenced Sijo. Of the 104 techniques in the Emperado method about 30 or so have boxing strikes but 61 techniques have the attacker throwing a boxer style punch at your head and when you add the two-man and three-man techniques with multiple attackers throwing punches the number of times you end up defending yourself against a punch thrown at your head is over 80 times. I'd like to point out that Sijo did not like the Japanese step in punch and he makes that very clear in Professor Bishop's video interview. Sijo goes so far as to stand up in the video and show how they attacked with a boxer punch and not a step in punch. 

I point all of this out because it seaways right into what you guys are suggesting. The techniques make up the art and they are created by combining striking and grappling--end of story. Once you get the techniques down the next step is to create an environment where you can practice them at full speed and under stress. Techniques practiced at less than full speed are great for developing muscle memory but once that muscle memory engages the bar has to be raised and the student needs to feel what full speed training is all about. The same thing is true about contact. In order to reach your full potential you need to be able to strike as hard as you possibly can every time. That's where pads come in. You cannot hit each other with full force more than a few times unless you pad up. If I were to list training practices from most important to least important I would list pad and bag work as the most important aspect of training--period!

Years ago GM Harper held a great seminar in the Fresno area. Dennis Peterson and I brought the RedMan suit and did some drills where Dennis dressed up in the suit and played the attacker role. This was a big get together so there were students from everywhere. Sadly, as we ran through the drill the first 10 guys or so looked like crap and many were black belts. It was obvious they had never trained using full force striking against a padded attacker. Then Jackie Uribe from Chris Smith's Tribul school got her turn. Dennis threw a punch at her head and she slapped his hand away then kicked him in the groin and followed up by stepping to the side and tagging Dennis in the throat with a ridge hand under the helmet. She dropped him. It was awesome. Because Jackie was used to fighting full contact she had no problem beating down her attacker. We still laugh about that. 

Learning techniques are great and very important when it comes to self defense but practicing at half speed with a willing opponent won't develop the skills necessary to actually use the techniques in real life. Using pads and bags and padding attackers up to create attack scenarios that can offer the student the opportunity to practice the techniques at full speed using all their power and learning to recognize targets works so much better, and it's a lot of fun. The energy level is better and the students know that what they are practicing and learning will give them a better chance to survive.

My hand-to-hand combat teacher at the Oakland Police Academy used to tell us that on a scale of 1 to 10 if we were a 8 on the mat then we would be a 4 in the street because no one on the mat is really trying to kill you. He said your true self will emerge when your life is on the line and your ability will be exposed. As teachers we owe it to our students to prepare them for what is really out there. As Kajukenbo practitioners we owe it to those who came before us to keep the art alive and continue to develop it to the best of our abilities.
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Grandmaster Mitch Powell (Emperado Method)
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Offline Dave Jones

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Re: Dynamism with the Art
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2016, 08:23:12 AM »
Years ago GM Harper held a great seminar in the Fresno area. Dennis Peterson and I brought the RedMan suit and did some drills where Dennis dressed up in the suit and played the attacker role. This was a big get together so there were students from everywhere. Sadly, as we ran through the drill the first 10 guys or so looked like crap and many were black belts. It was obvious they had never trained using full force striking against a padded attacker.
We had the same experience the first time anyone tried this on the Predator Armour we have for our gym, sir.
People learned quickly that proper striking, breathing and follow-through made a big difference.  Forward pressure, as we say.
Some individuals from non-kajukenbo schools were making a lot of excuses for why their fancy techniques didn't work.

One person in particular said that his techniques would work "better" if the opponent wasn't wearing full-contact body armour.
While I agreed with the sentiment, I also asked that since I could drop someone IN the armour, how well did he think our tactics would work against someone who DIDN'T have it?
As we had the discussion I could see cognitive dissonance being replaced by rationalization in his expression and body language.
He asked to try again and fell on his face trying his same stuff while Steve Todd (one of my black belts) merely walked into him while wearing the Armour.
As fast and hard as he thought he was hitting, he couldn't budge Steve at all.  Some might think his stuff looked cool, but it did not work.
A couple of my students told me it made them feel uncomfortable because they felt embarrassed for him. 
He was wearing a classical red & white (6th dan) belt.

It was obvious that this person (with around 30 years in the arts?) had never tried pressure testing his stuff.



I like Predator Armour because you can hit MUCH harder than you can against Red Man gear, in my experience.
We throw truly full-contact knees and elbows against the opponent in the Armour.  I've seen a tendency for people to still pull the strikes a bit with Red Man & FIST gear.
You almost have to, since Red Man seems to be rated for "accidental" contact.

http://www.cqbkajukenbo.com/dynamic-range-and-impact-with-the-predator-armour-july-3rd-2015/
« Last Edit: January 29, 2016, 09:28:16 AM by Dave Jones »
Dave Jones, CQB Kajukenbo Club - Fenton, MO
The Founders > Sid Asuncion > Alan Carter > Mike Griffin
Proud Life Member of the Ordonez Kajukenbo Ohana
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