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reality based training

Author Topic: reality based training  (Read 13571 times)

Offline Tim Vargas

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Re: reality based training
« Reply #60 on: June 07, 2014, 06:56:17 AM »
The title of this thread is "reality based training".   No one could argue about the training methods  being used, as I believe all training methods are useful to someone, somewhere in the world, including the "slippy slappy" or "Disney land" technique training.   I too have seen kajukenbo videos which focus on speed, but speed doesn't necessarily mean it is without power.  I think we can all agree that power used in the right way is just as good as speed in the right way, but if you have power and speed, then you even do better.   As was mentioned, Kajukenbo is not for everyone, but everyone can train...one reason is we have various methods with various philosophies, which brings up my other point. 

 I was never taught, nor have I ever heard GGM Gaylord say, to just punch people with preemptive attacks for being too close to someone talking, but rather that Kajukenbo is Self Defense.  Part of the training I received was that you would pretty much do everything you could to deter a fight, where everyone walks away being able to live another day and be with their loved ones.  Ofcourse, if there is an eminent danger that we could prevent, by all means, our training instills in us the confidence to take care of the situation, protecting ourselves and our loved ones.    So although I definitely agree with the training methods mentioned, I respectfully disagree with its use.  There is a legal implication to preemptive attacks, having to go through the hassle of trying to justify our use of force in court, also being susceptible to being sued, where an inventory of what all your assets are ($$$), etc., pretty much invading you and your families privacy because lawyers are out to earn a buck, is not a philosophy that I live nor one that I pass on to my students.

I hope no one takes offense at what I have typed, and if I did offend anyone, please forgive me, as that is not my intention, but merely my humble opinion.

Aloha Chief Tim,

You make some great points. Being able to perceive and discern when a threat is imminent is key. I'm no lawyer, but most of the statutory language in the self defense laws across the land talk about when lesser means have failed and that imminent jeopardy must exist in order to use force. Imminent jeopardy meaning the attacker has intent, capability, and opportunity at that given time to do you or somebody else some  bodily harm. The defender has to be able to articulate that to the law.  Some factors or variables that may justify some pre-emptive measures are; size and age disparity, gender difference, multiple attackers, defender is injured, attacker is close to or has a weapon, attacker has a known history of violence or advanced skill level, etc. Usually when the cops show up the guy on the ground goes to the hospital, while the guy standing goes to jail. People like to say, "I'd rather be judged by 12, than carried by 6". What they don't realize is they may have to end up using their Kaju to defend against getting raped by 6 in the lock up, if they were found to be malicious in the situation that got them there. The civil liability can be immense as well. The liability can be vicarious (meaning poop rolls up hill) for the instructor if the student hurts somebody without being justified. Gone are the days, at least in Hawaii, where if ya can't get along then get it on and scrap, as it apparently was in the early days of Kajukenbo. I know of a couple that are serving time for felonious assault for giving somebody dirty lickens and preemptively striking them. Some have gotten misdemeanors.

As far as training, all of the Kajukenbo techniques (punch counters, grab arts, knife and club tricks) are reactive. So to profess being a kajukenbo practictioner and advocating strike first is a contradiction in training theory as the techniques are were designed to be defensive. Being proactive means not putting yourself in bad places and situations where the likelihood of an encounter may occur. People who boast of many street fights are probably looking for it as about 90% of self defense is avoidance of those situations. Of course those who work in public safety are employed to be in harms way. Situation dictates response.

When it does come, and yeah it's not a matter of if, it's when, then I like to counter strike in combos of 3 round bursts, sort of like semi auto on the m16.  and give em some spirit, mind, and body. The number 4 is also a good symbolic number to use as it represents death in the Chinese mythos. Or better yet 5 for the five founders of Kajukenbo. Nothing wrong with the Kajukenbo techniques for reality. it's how you train them. We drill them in a part whole approach, meaning break down and isolate the limb destruction, entry, takedown, and finish. Then put it all together. Yeah, the fight will rarely play out like a whole punch counter, but it gives you an answer or plan if the guy doesn't go down in that first couple moves. Plus Grandma always said to clean up your plate good meaning follow through completely. I do use lead open hand checks, which could be interpreted as pokes, rakes, flicks, and palm strikes, consistently whether empty hand, or knife and stick work. Mainly to control distance and placement of strikes. Train it enough on heavy bags, sand bags, tires, etc. it can be an effective tool in itself like a jab to set up the finisher strike. Folks can see it at work in the OKO dvds. Take care, be safe, Mahalos.

Hello GM, I hope your doing well.  Thanks for the post, very informative.

Have a great weekend.

Tim Vargas:  Chief Instructor directly under the late GGM Gaylord. OKO

Offline Iakona

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  • Posts: 98
Re: reality based training
« Reply #61 on: June 08, 2014, 08:50:48 AM »
The title of this thread is "reality based training".   No one could argue about the training methods  being used, as I believe all training methods are useful to someone, somewhere in the world, including the "slippy slappy" or "Disney land" technique training.   I too have seen kajukenbo videos which focus on speed, but speed doesn't necessarily mean it is without power.  I think we can all agree that power used in the right way is just as good as speed in the right way, but if you have power and speed, then you even do better.   As was mentioned, Kajukenbo is not for everyone, but everyone can train...one reason is we have various methods with various philosophies, which brings up my other point. 

 I was never taught, nor have I ever heard GGM Gaylord say, to just punch people with preemptive attacks for being too close to someone talking, but rather that Kajukenbo is Self Defense.  Part of the training I received was that you would pretty much do everything you could to deter a fight, where everyone walks away being able to live another day and be with their loved ones.  Ofcourse, if there is an eminent danger that we could prevent, by all means, our training instills in us the confidence to take care of the situation, protecting ourselves and our loved ones.    So although I definitely agree with the training methods mentioned, I respectfully disagree with its use.  There is a legal implication to preemptive attacks, having to go through the hassle of trying to justify our use of force in court, also being susceptible to being sued, where an inventory of what all your assets are ($$$), etc., pretty much invading you and your families privacy because lawyers are out to earn a buck, is not a philosophy that I live nor one that I pass on to my students.

I hope no one takes offense at what I have typed, and if I did offend anyone, please forgive me, as that is not my intention, but merely my humble opinion.

Aloha Chief Tim,

You make some great points. Being able to perceive and discern when a threat is imminent is key. I'm no lawyer, but most of the statutory language in the self defense laws across the land talk about when lesser means have failed and that imminent jeopardy must exist in order to use force. Imminent jeopardy meaning the attacker has intent, capability, and opportunity at that given time to do you or somebody else some  bodily harm. The defender has to be able to articulate that to the law.  Some factors or variables that may justify some pre-emptive measures are; size and age disparity, gender difference, multiple attackers, defender is injured, attacker is close to or has a weapon, attacker has a known history of violence or advanced skill level, etc. Usually when the cops show up the guy on the ground goes to the hospital, while the guy standing goes to jail. People like to say, "I'd rather be judged by 12, than carried by 6". What they don't realize is they may have to end up using their Kaju to defend against getting raped by 6 in the lock up, if they were found to be malicious in the situation that got them there. The civil liability can be immense as well. The liability can be vicarious (meaning poop rolls up hill) for the instructor if the student hurts somebody without being justified. Gone are the days, at least in Hawaii, where if ya can't get along then get it on and scrap, as it apparently was in the early days of Kajukenbo. I know of a couple that are serving time for felonious assault for giving somebody dirty lickens and preemptively striking them. Some have gotten misdemeanors.

As far as training, all of the Kajukenbo techniques (punch counters, grab arts, knife and club tricks) are reactive. So to profess being a kajukenbo practictioner and advocating strike first is a contradiction in training theory as the techniques are were designed to be defensive. Being proactive means not putting yourself in bad places and situations where the likelihood of an encounter may occur. People who boast of many street fights are probably looking for it as about 90% of self defense is avoidance of those situations. Of course those who work in public safety are employed to be in harms way. Situation dictates response.

When it does come, and yeah it's not a matter of if, it's when, then I like to counter strike in combos of 3 round bursts, sort of like semi auto on the m16.  and give em some spirit, mind, and body. The number 4 is also a good symbolic number to use as it represents death in the Chinese mythos. Or better yet 5 for the five founders of Kajukenbo. Nothing wrong with the Kajukenbo techniques for reality. it's how you train them. We drill them in a part whole approach, meaning break down and isolate the limb destruction, entry, takedown, and finish. Then put it all together. Yeah, the fight will rarely play out like a whole punch counter, but it gives you an answer or plan if the guy doesn't go down in that first couple moves. Plus Grandma always said to clean up your plate good meaning follow through completely. I do use lead open hand checks, which could be interpreted as pokes, rakes, flicks, and palm strikes, consistently whether empty hand, or knife and stick work. Mainly to control distance and placement of strikes. Train it enough on heavy bags, sand bags, tires, etc. it can be an effective tool in itself like a jab to set up the finisher strike. Folks can see it at work in the OKO dvds. Take care, be safe, Mahalos.

Hello GM, I hope your doing well.  Thanks for the post, very informative.

Have a great weekend.

Mahalo Chief Tim. I appreciate your candid responses, even though it may be unpopular or going against the status quo here. We can beat the Kajukenbo war drum all day about what we would do, but when it's done, we will be judged by a reasonable man theory, or the probability and likelihood of what a reasonable and prudent person would do under similar circumstances. Righteousness usually prevails. God Bless.
GM Jason Groff
Ordonez Kajukenbo Ohana
Kajukenbo Hui Member

Offline CorderMMA

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    • Kajukenbo Arizona
Re: reality based training
« Reply #62 on: June 11, 2014, 01:26:53 PM »
Great thoughts in this discussion topic. I enjoyed hearing so many different aspects.

My take-aways on this are:
Train as if if you are really going to hurt someone who is attacking you. Make the training as realistic as possible: physically, mentality and emotionally.
Use life-like scenarios to help this happen.
Use physically challenging and demanding work outs to prepare the body.
Bullring practice allows students to train for random unforeseen responses.
Punching drills where contact is made, both with bags, makiwara, and live persons. Padding up helps the striker execute realistic technique, but no pads helps condition the recipient to be able to handle the shock of a real strike in preparation of mind and body.
Variety in training helps shock the mind and body and allows for increased interest in the training.
Be smart about what injuries you want to accept in your daily training in order to increase your longevity in the art.
Self defense may mean reactive techniques.
Observation and avoidance are more important than physical techniques in most every situation.
We should understand what failures of observation, action and preparation put us in a scenario where a reactive techniques must be employed.
We need to be pro-active in our preparation for defense and minimize the need to even use our striking. But train like we will use them no matter what the consequences.

There are concerns about how hard training style can drive the average person away from Kajukenbo because of the 'brutal' training methods. In my opinion, I think we start slow, and work up to it. We don't have to scare the white or yellow belt away. By the time they get to higher belts, they become more 'immune' to the strikes and hard training. Although I would say that repetitive injuries should be avoided wherever possible so that we can have a long and happy life in the martial arts. I have knees, elbows, shoulders, and vertebra that complain at me all the time now. Did I enjoy the hard hits and falls back when I was younger, heck ya! Do I enjoy the pain of getting older quicker than other people my age, hell no! Do I want to keep training? yes, and because of this I now need to watch what I do. I used to punch the concrete floor at full power almost daily to build up my punching first. I still can do it - but when I do, I have to wait a week or so before I can do it gain. So now I'll do it rarely. I'm going to have arthritis like the old masters one of these days. I write software for a day job, I hope I'll be able to type on a keyboard for years to come... maybe technology will continue to improve so that I can blow into a tube to type in the future. Is that my future?

We need to train realistic, sure, but we need to train smart so that we can have 'a long life and happiness through this fist style'.
Can we substitute things to help us condition our bodies without breaking them down needlessly?
I'm training to defend myself and my family - I may never have to hurt someone. Should my every-day training for a non-event cause my quality of life to be less than that of a person who lives in condition white: oblivion that fails to prepare in any way whatsoever? no

Ultimately the more prepared will have a better shot of surviving and even winning the encounter. And today is the day to prepare. But preparation is all inclusive.

Regarding the legalities of strike first or overkill. I think we have to make that decision as needed. Each situation has a different scenario. Multiple attackers, a weapon, the setting, etc.  But its hard to make a snap decision that will affect the rest of your life so you have to make the decisions ahead of time and then be committed as hesitation will kill you. Hesitation during a strike is wasted strike and will also kill you.

Regarding the disneyland techniques: Sijo Emperado, the founders and the old-timers were pretty genius. The alphabet techniques are simple, straight forward and pretty caveman like. Its hard to mess up something simple, its not pretty (and it shouldn't be) its effective. And every strike sets up the next. And yes, some people might react differently due to whatever the conditions, thats why the repetitive training and the ability to make adjustments. I don't expect that every techniques would need to be used to its fullest in every situation,we should be able to adapt on the fly after we have committed to using our weapons. The beauty about the simplicity is that the basic techniques can be chained together or adapted to many different situations.

Last week at the Malama event in South Dakota, Professor Nuno Nunes from Portugal in one of his sessions taught a single, straight-forward technique. And then proceeded to show how it could be used in a variety of different attacks with just slight modification. Are all the the various techniques there just for us to find the few that we can execute and make ours for every situation? Or do we need to memorize hundreds of different responses and train the body and mind to choose the right right one at the right time, while dealing with adrenaline and random unexpected and unprepared-for variables? I'm still trying to figure that one out - I'm starting to lean towards the former not the latter. But I understand how having more tools gives you more options, and I like having more options.

Thank you for everyone that shared.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 06:11:55 PM by CorderMMA »
-Sigung Kelly Corder & Sr Sifu Jennifer Corder
Kajukenbo Arizona: Live Clean. Fight Dirty

sigung@kajuaz.com sifu@kajuaz.com

under Grandmaster George Lim < the late Grandmaster Allen Abad < Sijo Emperado
also under John Hackleman of the PIT MMA < Walter Godin

Offline Greg Hoyt

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Re: reality based training
« Reply #63 on: June 11, 2014, 06:24:01 PM »
Well said, Sigung.  Mahalo.
Sifu Greg Hoyt
Hoyt's Kajukenbo, Peoria, Arizona
Under Sigung Trent Sera, Professor Kailani Koa
Train Hard - Fight Dirty