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reality based training

Author Topic: reality based training  (Read 13955 times)

Offline Ron Baker

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Re: reality based training
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2014, 03:31:24 PM »
It's always interesting to watch these street fight videos.  But they're also a reminder that a real fight situation--yes, even with a martial arts guy--isn't pretty.  In fact, as you see, it's not a sterile environment and time is of the essence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UB5tyMcY0wg

Warning: this contains tons of profanity (and it's obviously violent).  I'm not sure if this is against Cafe policy or not (apologies if not).  It's more educational than anything else. 

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Offline Ghost Rider

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Re: reality based training
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2014, 10:10:41 PM »
Tim since your the only one who has ever said yes I did a complete technique do you mind sharing with us which technique you used (how many moves) and what the situation was.
Greg Harper
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Offline Tim Vargas

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Re: reality based training
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2014, 10:52:17 PM »
Tim since your the only one who has ever said yes I did a complete technique do you mind sharing with us which technique you used (how many moves) and what the situation was.

GM H.

At work, but three different incidents, which i will giv one.  1991, at a bar on meekland with a friend a grew up with who liked to get in fights for the kick of it.  lomg story short, three against us two, my friend took care of two (he had no martial arts training, just liked to fight), the other, after blows back and forth for a few, he went for the old double lapel grab to try to take me down, which in two moves completed gaylords method grab art 4.  if u have seen it, the last move is a back knuckle strike to the nose.   the guy complaimed he couldnt see after.  i was scared that i might have blinded him with that strike to the nose, but thank God he was alright after a few minutes.

i may b the only one who answered your question, but certainly not the only one who has used a kajukenbo technique on the streets. 

have a great evening
Tim Vargas:  Chief Instructor directly under the late GGM Gaylord. OKO

Offline GM ALAN M. REYES

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Re: reality based training
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2014, 04:58:44 AM »
I have asked this question before at seminars with Sijo sitting right there.
Have any of you ever done a complete technique as taught in the dojo either in the bull ring or on the street.
When I say complete, I mean step by step without leaving anything out. 
So far not one person has said yes.
Well in a perfect world, in a perfect situation, one has to say that statement would be correct. But a student of Kaj does not train for a perfect world but an imperfect one. For all the training hours of lower ranks or even include years in the higher ranks. The knowledge of Kajukenbo comes down to muscle memory. Each fundamental was designed for its effectiveness against a certain type of attack and hopefully, for the right defensive one. Perfect or imperfect, if a technique had five moves.The last four moves could not be done if the first move was not on target.
Sijo has advance counters that had the required defensive moves, then he would do "Ground and Pound". But if he downed the attacker in the first and second moves, you're right!  He doesnt need the rest of his defensive scenario....better COVER, ADAPT, and wait for the rest. The "One shot one kill" only works in certain things. But in his mind, he still has the rest of his Kajukenbo Techniques to draw from,,,,"Some of this and some of that",,,makes a complete defensive or offensive technician.
TO TRAIN FOR WAR IN THE DARK, ALL STRATEGIES MUST BE LEARNED IN THE LIGHT.gmreyes
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Offline Ghost Rider

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Re: reality based training
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2014, 12:33:23 PM »
I have used my kajukenbo many times on the streets, and it works very well.
if it didn't I would not have been around so long.
I have complete faith in what Emperado has passed down. 
I myself have never got past the first two or three strikes and its over or has changed directions and is close to being over.
my under cover point was that I see lots of instructors impressing people with movement and speed and multiple strikes but no power.
if someone thinks I'm going to throw 1 punch and then stand there while they hit me 5 times they must be crazy.
and if you dont hurt me with your first couple of strikes you might just be the one in trouble.
train hard, strike hard, strike fast and follow up for the finish.
Greg Harper
senior instructor, Gumataotao Kajukenbo
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Sijo Emperado's personal body guard

Offline Dave Jones

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Re: reality based training
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2014, 01:20:31 PM »
Agreed sir.
Hit first, hit hard, keep hitting and keep the pressure on.

We do not train 5 or 6 move counters against "static" strikes.
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Offline Ghost Rider

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Re: reality based training
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2014, 06:26:17 PM »
Yeah I always tell my people to hit them while their selling you their resume, then turn and hit his friend just for being too close.

or hit the friend first and then back to the main target.
Greg Harper
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Offline Dave Jones

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Re: reality based training
« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2014, 12:15:54 PM »
"hit them while their selling you their resume"

Great way to put it sir.
Dave Jones, CQB Kajukenbo Club - Fenton, MO
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Offline Ghost Rider

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Re: reality based training
« Reply #23 on: May 26, 2014, 02:45:47 PM »
Yeah, you do it right about the time they are telling you who they are, or giving you that, "you don't know who I am" line.
As batman would say, POW!!!!!!!
Then, without hesitation, you drop his friend just for being too close.
If they're close enough to touch you then they are part of the problem, too.
This brings to light my reason for this original post.
I have been in those situations - as many others here have.
In the streets you will often be outnumbered and have only enough time for 1 or 2 cracks per person.
That being said, you had better hit first, hit fast and hard, then find another target and repeat
We have been taught that and we all know it, but I feel that we, as martial artist, are losing the killer instinct.
I hear about how the training was in the 40's & 50's, so Kajukenbo has the reputation of being very rough and tumble.
The founders built that reputation, but today many are living on a reputation they don't themselves hold up to.
I do my best to teach the way I was taught and to pass on, as Sijo asked me many times to do. He always said to give 'em hard style, rough and tumble, no pity-pat kine.
That being said, I have seen those who say they train hard and that they like to bang. That good -  that's Kajukenbo.
But when I watch, I don't see it. I see hints of it in there sometimes, but it's a distant relative of what it used to be.
I don't want to see Kajukenbo get watered down, so I am speaking up.
We were at a seminar a few years ago and one of my black belts had no one to train with, so I told him to work on me.
He was hitting me, but I could tell he was holding back. I gave him my little look and said HIT ME.
He did and we continued.
Then G M Reyes came by and said, "man you guys bang."
I looked back at him and said, "isn't that what were supposed to do?"
He gave me a grin and walked on to continue teaching.
I have complete faith in Kajukenbo. I am just trying to get everyone to take reality check on how we actually train in Kajukenbo and how we should train.
The bullring, or as Sijo called it just a few years before he left us, The Emperado circle, is where you will see my point and is the perfect example.
In the bullring, people are coming at you quickly, from all angles, and in a rapid motion. You don't have much time to think or react - you just have to react.
When you do the bullring, do it with a new attacker coming in every 2 to 3 seconds and see how long you can go without breaking from the technique.
It will be a mess in no time, and that's real.
 
Greg Harper
senior instructor, Gumataotao Kajukenbo
Head instructor, Kajupit MMA
Sijo Emperado's personal body guard

Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: reality based training
« Reply #24 on: May 26, 2014, 07:56:20 PM »
We do a little banging ourselves GM H... GT
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Offline grand master hemenes

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Re: reality based training
« Reply #25 on: May 26, 2014, 10:08:57 PM »
gm harper i agree with you a 100% on this one cant give you any sh...t on this one :)   

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Offline sibakgreg

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Re: reality based training
« Reply #26 on: May 26, 2014, 11:06:42 PM »
I agree with everyone on this subject.  I also believe that all of our training drills are of benefit to us, even the ones that don't make much contact.  Of course, contact, hard contact, is always best.  But especially in the beginning, a student needs to work on mechanics and footwork.  The new student needs to gather weapons to stash away, learn footwork for the entry, the fight, and the escape.  Get familiar with combat stances, base, balance, and posture.  We train Groundfighting, as opposed to grappling for street situations.   
When we do the Bullring, everybody fights.  So the new student gets his/her bell rung, and gets the chance to experience delivering hard strikes, kicks, and throws (strange....but not everyone has been in a real fight).  When we Kickbox, everyone Kickboxes.  When we do Monkey Line, everyone participates.  Same with Three Second Drills, etc. 
We like to drill street fights, ambushes, car jacks, all kine street scenarios.  We even take it outside to the parking lot, the park, or the actual street to train on occasion. 
NOTHING will replace the experience of actually being in a scrap.  But I agree, we need to keep getting as close as we can.  That means EMPERADO METHOD training. 
My instructor used to say, "Kajukenbo is not for everyone, but everyone can train Kajukenbo".
Sifu Greg 

Offline Tim Vargas

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Re: reality based training
« Reply #27 on: May 27, 2014, 12:36:35 AM »
The title of this thread is "reality based training".   No one could argue about the training methods  being used, as I believe all training methods are useful to someone, somewhere in the world, including the "slippy slappy" or "Disney land" technique training.   I too have seen kajukenbo videos which focus on speed, but speed doesn't necessarily mean it is without power.  I think we can all agree that power used in the right way is just as good as speed in the right way, but if you have power and speed, then you even do better.   As was mentioned, Kajukenbo is not for everyone, but everyone can train...one reason is we have various methods with various philosophies, which brings up my other point. 

 I was never taught, nor have I ever heard GGM Gaylord say, to just punch people with preemptive attacks for being too close to someone talking, but rather that Kajukenbo is Self Defense.  Part of the training I received was that you would pretty much do everything you could to deter a fight, where everyone walks away being able to live another day and be with their loved ones.  Ofcourse, if there is an eminent danger that we could prevent, by all means, our training instills in us the confidence to take care of the situation, protecting ourselves and our loved ones.    So although I definitely agree with the training methods mentioned, I respectfully disagree with its use.  There is a legal implication to preemptive attacks, having to go through the hassle of trying to justify our use of force in court, also being susceptible to being sued, where an inventory of what all your assets are ($$$), etc., pretty much invading you and your families privacy because lawyers are out to earn a buck, is not a philosophy that I live nor one that I pass on to my students.

I hope no one takes offense at what I have typed, and if I did offend anyone, please forgive me, as that is not my intention, but merely my humble opinion.
Tim Vargas:  Chief Instructor directly under the late GGM Gaylord. OKO

Offline envisiontj

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Re: reality based training
« Reply #28 on: May 27, 2014, 01:01:52 AM »
Hello Mr. Vargas,

I respect your opinion, and everyone is entitled to their views of the training methods, etc.  However - I have to respectfully disagree.  Pre-emptive striking can be the best choice for many situations.  If you choose to play a more defensive role, you are allowing your opponent to get ahead of you in time.  Now this is not taking into consideration being sucker punched, etc obviously.  So, if you have the opportunity to take out a threat before they choose to make an action, you beat them at the time game.  If you start out behind in time, you now have to make up for it.  You will be defending, while trying to be offending.  There are many techniques and principles that cover this situation, but why choose to put yourself in that position in the first place.  I agree with the previous statements regarding pre-emptive striking.  If I am in an altercation (and this has actually happened to me more than once) and there is a secondary person (or more) too close by, then they are part of it also and taken out before they have the chance to make an action towards me.

Giving credit to Datu Kelly Worden, there are cheerleaders and witnesses in the vicinity.  Witnesses keep themselves at a safe distance from the altercation and are in no danger of being involved.  Cheerleaders may be friends of the adversary or maybe just idiots that happen to be in the area and want in on the action.  Either way, they are too close and pose a potential threat to me and will be included in my actions.

You are correct, there are legal implications that may be considered.  However, when I am in the mix, legal implications are definitely not my focus.  I need myself, and others with me, to be safe first and foremost.  The legal implications can be thought of ahead of time in relation to the situations you voluntarily put yourself in, etc., but we can't always stay away from problems, and that is part of the reason we train.

I, personally, am a big advocate of the "strike first" mentality, and teach this to my students.  It is upto the individual to be able to discern the whether the threat is real or not prior to striking.  If I or my students "feel" in danger, then strike and end it quickly.

Anyways, just my thoughts.  No offense taken, but I do have to disagree and hope that any future altercations that you have allow for your mindset to do well for you and your safety.
Sifu Trent Junker
Realm Of The Tiger Kajukenbo - Portland, OR
Under GM Gerry Scott

Offline Tim Vargas

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Re: reality based training
« Reply #29 on: May 27, 2014, 01:31:11 AM »
Hello Mr. Vargas,

I respect your opinion, and everyone is entitled to their views of the training methods, etc.  However - I have to respectfully disagree.  Pre-emptive striking can be the best choice for many situations.  If you choose to play a more defensive role, you are allowing your opponent to get ahead of you in time.  Now this is not taking into consideration being sucker punched, etc obviously.  So, if you have the opportunity to take out a threat before they choose to make an action, you beat them at the time game.  If you start out behind in time, you now have to make up for it.  You will be defending, while trying to be offending.  There are many techniques and principles that cover this situation, but why choose to put yourself in that position in the first place.  I agree with the previous statements regarding pre-emptive striking.  If I am in an altercation (and this has actually happened to me more than once) and there is a secondary person (or more) too close by, then they are part of it also and taken out before they have the chance to make an action towards me.

Giving credit to Datu Kelly Worden, there are cheerleaders and witnesses in the vicinity.  Witnesses keep themselves at a safe distance from the altercation and are in no danger of being involved.  Cheerleaders may be friends of the adversary or maybe just idiots that happen to be in the area and want in on the action.  Either way, they are too close and pose a potential threat to me and will be included in my actions.

You are correct, there are legal implications that may be considered.  However, when I am in the mix, legal implications are definitely not my focus.  I need myself, and others with me, to be safe first and foremost.  The legal implications can be thought of ahead of time in relation to the situations you voluntarily put yourself in, etc., but we can't always stay away from problems, and that is part of the reason we train.

I, personally, am a big advocate of the "strike first" mentality, and teach this to my students.  It is upto the individual to be able to discern the whether the threat is real or not prior to striking.  If I or my students "feel" in danger, then strike and end it quickly.

Anyways, just my thoughts.  No offense taken, but I do have to disagree and hope that any future altercations that you have allow for your mindset to do well for you and your safety.

Yes Sigung, I understand that a preemptive attack helps get rid of any situation if done properly, so perhaps our disagreement isn't so much with technique and training as it is of philosophy.  You seem to take the position that its okay to punch people talking, or just walking down the street, is that right?  Im sorry, I do not prescribe to the same.  I believe everyone is made in the image and likeness of God, and doesn't deserve their rights to be violated because someone "felt" they had the right to just walk up to someone and do a preemptive attack, etc..  My oldest daughter is a student at UCSB where yet another senseless tragedy took place.  Yeah, some guy decided to do a preemptive violent attack (ofcourse mentally thinking he was defending his ego), by stabbing, shoot and running students over with his vehicle.  SO, was he justified Sigung?  I don't think so, and am glad he is off the streets, although not soon enough. 

As for my mindset ;o), yes it has served me well and those who I care for. 

Have a blessed week
Tim Vargas:  Chief Instructor directly under the late GGM Gaylord. OKO