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reality based training

Author Topic: reality based training  (Read 14177 times)

Offline Ghost Rider

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reality based training
« on: May 19, 2014, 02:58:29 PM »
Keeping things in a reality based concept is how I teach.
A real fight will never look like it does in the dojo or on television.
The first couple of moves you make should be the deciding factor.
So when you watch an instructor strike several points with chops and elbows hammer fists knees and kicks don?t get lost in that.
As soon as you hit them with the first couple of moves they will be changing position or be striking again not just standing there while you hit them 8 to 10 times.
I understand that this is how we learn flow, but don?t think that you?re going to apply that when a person is coming at you full speed with full power and multiple strikes.
The reason I bring this up is that sometimes you see instructors doing what GM Sotelo calls Disney land techniques.
And the students are all smiling and saying ooh, ah.
I say nobody is going to hit me that many times and all I get off is one punch.
Okay let the arguing begin, LOL
Greg Harper
senior instructor, Gumataotao Kajukenbo
Head instructor, Kajupit MMA
Sijo Emperado's personal body guard

Offline envisiontj

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Re: reality based training
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2014, 03:12:18 PM »
GM Harper,

I completely agree with you.  I am fortunate (or unfortunate) to be able to draw from some real life experience bouncing clubs, etc - though not near the experience you have.

Nothing out there happens they way it is "planned" in the dojo.  Each action will cause a reaction of some sort.  So many techniques don't take the reactions into account during their techniques.  I do see the utilization of some of these things for various training aspects, such as flow, relaxation, muscle memory, etc. - BUT what I also see is many Martial Arts instructors leaving it at that with no realism ever involved.  I fully believe in training drills (some of which are not very "real") for a portion of the training, but there has to be so much more focus on the "street" mentality and techniques if we plan for our students (and ourselves) to be able to use our training in the case of a real life encounter.
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Online Dave Jones

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Re: reality based training
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2014, 04:36:33 PM »
Agreed.  In fact, I just posted something along these lines this morning:

http://www.cqbkajukenbo.com/reality-based-self-defense-rbsd-compared-to-traditional-martial-arts-tma/

There is a lot more to personal protection & self defense than simply training in a "martial art".

Some people's idea of "self defense" and what they are going to do in a "real fight" is delusional.

That is just how I look at it.
Dave Jones, CQB Kajukenbo Club - Fenton, MO
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Offline sifutimg

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Re: reality based training
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2014, 07:16:04 PM »
I have always told my students fighting is ugly plain and simple.  It's important to practice our flow however make sure whatever drills include our Uke's to fight back and provide resistance.  As GM Harper said those first couple of moves are the deciding factor as they absolutely need to cause enough damage to survive and evacuate, restrain or knock them the hell out.  Right?

From the self defense perspective with the key word being "defense" realize we are behind in time as in the defense position we are reacting not initiating so strategies and principles regarding not doing too much with our bodies and movement need to be understood.  How many times have you sat on a belt test board and unrehearsed scenarios are put in place during the test especially with multiple opponents and the student does too much and they get clocked or for that matter whom has experienced trying to do to much in the street and got clocked? 

There is beauty in ferocious simplicity.

Just my two cents,
Tim
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Online Dave Jones

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Re: reality based training
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2014, 10:15:08 PM »
From the self defense perspective with the key word being "defense" realize we are behind in time as in the defense position we are reacting not initiating so strategies and principles regarding not doing too much with our bodies and movement need to be understood. Tim

At least in Missouri this is not the case, Brother Tim. 

I and my students can initiate action --instead of the slower, less efficient reacting-- and it is still self defense, as long as one believes there was imminent danger of bodily harm.
That is useful, since Action beats Reaction within arms reach almost every time.
The Reactionary Gap can be your best friend or worst enemy.

http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/chapters/chap563.htm
http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/c500-599/5630000031.htm
« Last Edit: May 19, 2014, 10:16:42 PM by Dave Jones »
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Offline Jason Goldsmith

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Re: reality based training
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2014, 01:35:34 PM »
What argument?  I completely agree.  It's obvious impossible to fully train for a street fight without getting in a street fight, so I try and incorporate as much sparring (basically MMA rules + ball shots) as I can so people get used to working against people who don't want their techniques to work.
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Online Dave Jones

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Re: reality based training
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2014, 03:13:48 PM »
I would go as far to bet the majority of Kajukenbo black belts would agree with this, Brother Jason.

The people who would be the most likely to disagree would be people who are selling fluff and blowing smoke, calling it "martial arts" - McDojos and that crowd.

If you pander to the lowest common denominator to keep enrollment up then I think it would be difficult to train seriously enough and hard enough to really trust your skills without starting brawls a few times each year.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 08:15:18 AM by Dave Jones »
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Offline Zenshi

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Re: reality based training
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2014, 04:48:41 PM »
Kajukenbo in the past:
Last week I had the honor to hang out with Henry Mandac and visit with George Seronio. They are both very humble old school Palama Settlement students of Joe Emperado and Sijo.  I spoke with Henry many times about the training back then and asked about the stories that have been told.  Specifically I asked him if what is said about getting into street fights to see if Kajukenbo works is true, this is what he said:

"Well Glen, back when we were young and we trained hard, real hard, we like try and see if it works, we wanted to know if it was good.  On Saturday nights I would go walk down Beretannia St. in front all the night clubs and pool halls, there would always be someone or a few criminal type that would like make trouble.  Back then the streets were easy compared to the way we trained at Palama.  When Joe would lock the door we could not smile and no one was your friend until training was over…..then we would go walk." 

He told me, "You only can fight how you train"

Glen
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Offline sifutimg

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Re: reality based training
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2014, 12:37:45 PM »
Dave, yes of course you can initiate, when you have that time.  I am talking about when you don't.  I prefaced my statement - [key word being "defense"] to try and convey a pure defensive scenario i.e. walking along and someone attacks you from around a corner, you are having words with someone and their friend attacks you from the side or behind, or at a gathering where someone just walks up and punches you (it's happened to me), things like that is what I was referring to and not disputing anything you said and just clarifying my point better I hope.

Glen, I was blessed with being able to talk to George Seronio at Sijo's funeral on Oahu.  Being Great Grandmaster Gaylord's teacher I really wanted to meet him.  He told me he was very proud of Charlie as he called him.  He told me how they used to break faces by poking the eyes then collapsing the palm onto the face breaking their face -  :)  He then told me to build up what some people call the 5th knuckle, that bone on the wrist on the pinky side of the hand.  He said hit that on something everyday to build it up.  He was great to talk to and said some great things speaking during Sijo's eulogy.  Anyway see you at KSDI my friend.

Cheers,
Tim

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Offline GM ALAN M. REYES

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Re: reality based training
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2014, 02:23:08 PM »
To all concerned
In the farthest reaches of any type of thought, Do you really believe that anything that Sijo practiced, wether it was a single fundamental, or combination of any fundamentals, That he believed that it would FAIL, wether it was hitting with horizontal forearm,tiger claw, or a simple forward punch. The ability of any student of self defense known as KAJUKENBO is based on the consistency of training. If you dont have the confidence in your "own" weapons, than back down, and fight another day when that "confidence" is reached. Emperado believed if he had to hit someone, the attacker would definitely go down, I personally seen what Emperado was capable of in a real life situation,,,,and there was definitely no lack of confidence,ability,agressiveness and consistency.
As one great master said...."be like water...." In Kajukenbo "training" our belief should be,,, Be like Sijo!
with all due respect
GMReyes
« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 06:21:33 PM by GM ALAN M. REYES »
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Offline Ron Baker

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Re: reality based training
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2014, 09:21:51 AM »
Really good topic.  It's a different time and a different attacker(s); we have to train for them.

While the sloppy drunk is still out there looking for a fight, there are plenty of MMA-wannabes who also get drunk or high, and who also want to fight.  It's a fair question to ask: are we prepared for an attacker with fighting skills? 

It's never too late to assess and reassess our training for the realities outside of the dojo. 
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Offline Ghost Rider

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Re: reality based training
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2014, 12:12:30 PM »
I have asked this question before at seminars with Sijo sitting right there.
Have any of you ever done a complete technique as taught in the dojo either in the bull ring or on the street.
When I say complete, I mean step by step without leaving anything out. 
So far not one person has said yes.
Greg Harper
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Offline Ron Baker

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Re: reality based training
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2014, 12:17:35 PM »
Quote
Have any of you ever done a complete technique as taught in the dojo either in the bull ring or on the street.

Nope.  Some of the separate elements are useful, but from beginning to end ... no.
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Online Dave Jones

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Re: reality based training
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2014, 01:42:23 PM »
When I say complete, I mean step by step without leaving anything out. 

One of my students gave me the impression that he did, but he moved first and it only took 2 moves...
For the most part our techniques probably have less components than the average - usually about 3 moves, tops.

I would doubt someone could pull off a string of 4 or 5+ moves - especially if they are on the defensive and reacting to some sort of attack.

I teach it as the Kajukenbo K.I.S.S. Principle:
"Keep It Simple and Savage"
« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 01:45:14 PM by Dave Jones »
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Offline Tim Vargas

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Re: reality based training
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2014, 02:41:59 PM »
I have asked this question before at seminars with Sijo sitting right there.
Have any of you ever done a complete technique as taught in the dojo either in the bull ring or on the street.
When I say complete, I mean step by step without leaving anything out. 
So far not one person has said yes.

yes, i have, thats how i know they work amd why i continue to pass them on.  great question GM Harper
Tim Vargas:  Chief Instructor directly under the late GGM Gaylord. OKO