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Have you noticed

Author Topic: Have you noticed  (Read 6621 times)

Offline Ghost Rider

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Have you noticed
« on: April 21, 2014, 12:05:03 PM »
Have you noticed that there is very little going on here anymore?
In my opinion it?s because people are reluctant to write anything because others are always making an argument out of everything instead of a discussion.
I think it sucks that this forum with so many people (3462 members) is so silent.
That?s just my opinion.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2014, 12:08:46 PM by Ghost Rider »
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Offline Patrick Campbell

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Re: Have you noticed
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2014, 01:14:33 PM »
I think you are probably accurate in this theory. It does seem that every time someone makes a comment or brings forth an idea that there are a handful who rather than using it as an opportunity to share knowledge or have lively debate choose rather to be keyboard warriors. In short - big ego equates to tearing down instead of building up.

Patrick
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Offline sifutimg

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Re: Have you noticed
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2014, 01:21:51 PM »
Yes Grandmaster I have certainly noticed and agree.  I get why people do not want to share and admittedly for myself have fallen into not wanting to hear a bunch of crap because I am excited about something, want to share it, then have to hear negativity because this person or that person have differences.  Differences are OK as that helps us all get out of inertia and moving, hopefully towards something positive.  If we are to continue to grow and prosper we need to all have a thick skin and learn to agree to disagree.  We all have our believes and values and I absolutely do not have the right to map those onto anybody else.  I am truly nobody special and absolutely love my Ohana as Kajukenbo and what I have learned from all of YOU has saved my life physically and emotionally so many times that my appreciation for all of YOU is infinite.  I have some of the greatest friends I have ever made in my life through Kajukenbo and many of those came through having differences with another.  Nobody walks in our shoes nor can they understand or perceive where each of us have been in our lives.  So share, ask questions and just be in your integrity and really that is all it takes I feel.  Thank you GM Harper for always being willing to put yourself out there.  Your heart for Kajukenbo is very much appreciated.

Just my 2-cents,
Tim
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Offline Dave Jones

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Re: Have you noticed
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2014, 04:29:42 PM »

I am not sure if this response to GM Harper's observation will be considered "negative" but I think it is worth mentioning and considering.
I say this knowing full-well that I am one of the most irreverent people here when it comes to challenging assertions and the status quo.

I think it a big part of it is that people here (and in society overall) simply do not want to actually discuss things very often.
They like to announce things occasionally but people rarely want any feedback.
It keeps them safe but that is not a discussion and does not challenge them to actively consider their positions or beliefs.
If those of us on this forum can all agree on one thing it may be that hiding away from conflict does not guarantee you and your loved ones will be safe your whole life.

Most everyone seems to want a pat on the back and to hear "Me too!" but they fear dissension or disagreement.
Sometimes on this forum, disagreement and debate is actively discouraged.
The lack of fresh or even controversial ideas is an easy way to stagnate and fall into a cult of personality, in my experience.

I, for one, appreciate a lively debate and discussion when it is backed up by evidence and facts.
There seems to be little of that lately.
Like Tim says, people may need to get thicker skins.

The key is to remember that no one is "entitled" to an opinion, especially a wrong one.
The idea that you are "entitled to an opinion" is a logical fallacy which is far too prevalent in our society.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I'm_entitled_to_my_opinion
http://theconversation.com/no-youre-not-entitled-to-your-opinion-9978

'If “Everyone’s entitled to their opinion” just means no-one has the right to stop people thinking and saying whatever they want, then the statement is true, but fairly trivial.
No one can stop you saying that vaccines cause autism, no matter how many times that claim has been disproven.
But if ‘entitled to an opinion’ means ‘entitled to have your views treated as serious candidates for the truth’ then it’s pretty clearly false.
And this too is a distinction that tends to get blurred.'
 - quoted from the link above

Don't even get me started on "Appeals to Authority"...

The point is, just because someone disagrees with someone else (and/or pokes holes in their theories and arguments) does not make them or the discussion automatically "negative".
There are "positive arguments" and "negative arguments" -
Positive Arguments: A positive argument is one in favor of your position.
Negative Arguments: A negative argument is an argument against your opponent’s position.
Sometimes these go hand-in-hand.

Occasionally you must tear something down to make room for something better.
The military tears down new recruits (both mind and body) and this is generally recognized as a good and necessary thing.
We tear down derelict, condemned, abandoned buildings to make parks and playgrounds.
People who are against having their beliefs questioned or assailed worry me.
A regime of unimpeachable, unchallenged, unquestioned authority and belief helped give us the Dark Ages.

Just food for thought.

For the record: I love my Ohana, near and far.  I teach my students to practice ohana & kokua instead of just talk about it.
I spend at least $1,200-$1,500 a year out of pocket to buy uniforms and equipment for my students.
I basically set my income tax return check aside for training expenses.   Fortunately Joanna understands this and is supportive.
I pay to drive my students to seminars, often paying seminar fees to other Kajukenbo instructors. 
Challenging the beliefs and assertions of other Kajukenbo people does not mean I do not love and respect them any less than anyone else here.
Dave Jones, CQB Kajukenbo Club - Fenton, MO
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Offline GM ALAN M. REYES

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Re: Have you noticed
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2014, 06:15:25 PM »
I do believe if "questions" are asked, then there should be answers! Wether you agree with them or not. The Person or persons or association, that a question has been asked of, if they are not willing to answer then there's your answer. The answer would be that they don't know, or not willing to reach a decision, of the question at hand. Then of course if the question or answer is vague, then Kaj is still left in the dark . You as Kaj should ask a source, who is well qualified to answer. If not, then it becomes a debating question, with everyones opinion! But again if you believe what the source says pertain to you or yours then its a positive and can be fully understood an put to a well meaning question and answer session. Whats wrong is that there is too many negatives  and nobody is willing to make them into positives. Kaj notices a lot, and yet good sessions of answers, or qualifying answers...... yes are far and in between, but that's "our" Kaj.
With all due respect
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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Have you noticed
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2014, 08:16:05 PM »
It would be nice to get back to training thoughts etc..discussing and debating to me are different....I like discussing things with my wife debating not so much...Peace.
GM John E Bono DC
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Offline cirillo

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Re: Have you noticed
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2014, 09:34:45 PM »
Yes, I have noticed the issue.  However, I am not really too bothered by it.  I think that you are partially correct that people worry about starting something negative, but I am not sure that is necessarily a bad thing.  Remember, in the beginning of this, we had some very disrespectful people around that were basically causing trouble for the sake of it.  Making noise to get attention.  Most of those are now gone, so the site is quite a bit more quiet.

Also, in the beginning, many people had information and materials that they wanted to 'get out there' by posting.  Now, if you go through the archives for this site, they are huge.  There is a great deal of useful information and many times, when someone asks a question, they get answered with a reference to previous information or posts already there.  Not a bad thing, but it does make many questions unnecessary when if you know enough to do a simple search, you don't need to post a question.

So, basically, now that this site is so big, it is hard to bring in something completely new.  If people want more action on the site, it is easy.  Just ask something or post something 'new'.  I don't think many of the people here, including myself are scared of posting something and getting flack for it.  Posted respectfully and not trying to cause trouble, what is there to fear?  Honestly, I don't see what it is to worry about.  However, if someone just posts to complain, well, what else should they expect but some negative reactions.  Honest contributions or new questions?  No problem.

This is just my opinion though.  Maybe something ominous is going on, but I doubt it.  I just think it is the natural evolution of the site.  Personally, I am happy that the site is around.  We all know it is here whenever we might need it to advertise or ask something.  It has been quite a good thing and still serves that purpose.  Mostly, people are just doing what they should be, training and not worrying about it unless they have something important to put up. 

For myself, I won't hesitate when I have something new that I want to put up.  I just have trouble having enough time to do my own stuff, let alone coming up with new posts for the site.  Maybe someone else wants to work at it more.  If so, go for it.
Sifu Jeffrey D. Cirillo,  7th Degree Black belt in Wun Hop Kuen Do under GM Al Dacascos and 3rd Degree in FaChuan (Blossom Fist) under Sifu Bill Owens with over 35 years experience in the martial arts.
College Station, TX

Offline Ron Baker

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Re: Have you noticed
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2014, 10:01:16 PM »
The Cafe, like a lot of websites and blogs, needs relevant content to keep people interested.  The fact that there are over 3000+ members, but only a handful regularly bother to login -- let alone say anything -- means that the Cafe is no longer relevant to the vast majority of the Kajukenbo ohana.  Was negativity a problem?  Sure.  But then so was hypocrisy, abuse of power, poor leadership, and other things that pretty much turned people off.  This didn't happen all of a sudden; it took the better part of a decade.  It was inevitable.

The Cafe had great potential.  Still does.  But it's no longer an accurate reflection of Kajukenbo worldwide, if it ever was.  And 3000+ people noticed.

Now is a good time to refresh and reach out to those disinterested members and give them a reason to come back.  New and fresh. 
« Last Edit: April 21, 2014, 10:05:00 PM by Ron Baker »
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Offline GM ALAN M. REYES

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Re: Have you noticed
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2014, 03:26:44 AM »
It would be nice to get back to training thoughts
I'm with you Prof. Bono, It was what Emperado started, and the many great instructors solidify his wishes. It is the only way our students become great.
It is the thoughts of training, Whatever the association, whatever the method, whatever the path of evolution, walk the walk, the course and the way has been shown to us. If it is what is done with your heart, just for the love of Kajukenbo.
With all my respect
Again your Brother in Arms
GMReyes
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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Have you noticed
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2014, 10:22:20 AM »
GM Reyes...agreed I just want to train have my good friends I trust in Kaju...not only in my group of Gaylord but all others..I respect everyone who is respectful to others...not just to me...
the exchange of info or just the reminder of things we haven't been working on is always great....I personally like the discussions of training and skills sets and scenarios.

The political stuff is not for me...I try to stay out of what I can....a Good sweat a nice bruise a little blood is good for the soul a debate about something at this point in my life is not what I strive for...Peace...
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Offline Dave Jones

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Re: Have you noticed
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2014, 10:17:03 AM »
If the point is that the majority of the posters on this forum would prefer non-confrontational dialogue to discussions and debates then I would expect it to get pretty dull around here.   
The "low attendance" reflects that
If there is no challenge to the posts and little to directly question then you are just typing stuff and trying to get along.
All rainbows & unicorns will be boring for many people who secretly want drama and conflict: Kajukenbo Reality-TV. 
Nothing to see here, therefore they will move along to a more interesting site often just so they can complain about the drama - including "ignorance & stupidity" of people on that site...
All I usually see here on the Kafe, day after day, week after week is the same "dedicated" people logging in for news and updates and little else.
I doubt most of the 3400 were "scared off" by any perceived negativity or other garbage.  This is Kajukenbo - we train for conflict.
Most of the 3400+ are not logging in because they have no need or desire to. 
There is no compelling reason to sign in; no information that they cannot get by email or a phone call from someone else, & nothing really new or of interest.

I put a few new -often controversial- things on the front page of my web site every day or two. 
You know what? People go to my site all the time and talk about it.
The front page of the Kafe is a list of forum threads to drill and search through.  Just sayin'

Realize too that even in a dialogue, there is a possibly that someone is more "right" than the other person. 
The difference is that with dialogue you are generally expected to admit to yourself that you were wrong...
Also don't forget that (generally) dialogues are initially "heard"; dialogue works better "in-person" where you can get direct and immediate feedback via things like verbal / non-verbal responses & cues, body language and para-language. 

"Introducing Dialogue into the Workplace - Joseph Alonzo

Is it dialogue, discussion, or is it debate? There is a difference, and each has its own value. Do you know the difference? Would you recognize dialogue if you heard it in your workplace?

To guide you through this question I would first like to distinguish dialogue from the other common forms of communication—debate and discussion. Debate is combative and seeks to be victorious; it wants to express itself and say it is better than you. Discussion can be described as debate trying to play nice. Much like debate, it is interested in advocating its view points and challenging those of others.

Dialogue, on the other hand, seeks to find a shared connection. It is not concerned with winning or losing, rather it aspires to listen more deeply, understand more fully, and build a collective point of view. When the diversity of personality and opinion present moments of conflict and tension, dialogue steps in and mediates the conversation back to a renewed sense of connection.

A great workplace fosters dialogue and encourages a diverse perspective. After all, these are the very elements that lead to growth and innovation. The issue being raised here today rests in the assumption that dialogue is rather anemic in organizations, and I would contend that if it is practiced so little, it is because it is understood so little. Let’s explore some of the principles that make dialogue so valuable in a workplace. As one engages in dialogue, it is asked that they:

- Suspend Judgment
- Listen
- Inquire
- Explore Assumptions

When we suspend our judgment, we temporarily silence our thoughts and open our capacity to engage as listeners. Greater inquiry into others' viewpoints help us better understand those we work alongside and affords us the opportunity to adopt new ways of thinking. When we explore our assumptions, we encounter unchallenged ideas, unchecked biases, and patterns of thought that influence, and possibly inhibit, our workplace engagement.

Dialogue is also, however, a very challenging undertaking. Becoming aware of personal assumptions is tough work. It places us in a position of measuring the consistency between our words and our actions, and realizing that their alignment may not be as linear as we believe. Inevitably, the practice of dialogue asks us to consider that our opinions are not always correct, and that, in fact, others may have more effective methods for approaching situations. Doing this is neither natural nor cathartic, but growth is rarely comforting.

So, I will ask again, would you recognize dialogue if you heard it?"

From here: http://www.greatplacetowork.com/publications-and-events/blogs-and-news/1064
« Last Edit: April 23, 2014, 12:40:33 PM by Dave Jones »
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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Have you noticed
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2014, 10:54:40 AM »
I know I can sit around with friends from growing up college and martial arts friends for many hours and just talk...whether about life, business, training, family,,,it's all good I don't need the drama...if someone in our group is continually starting arguments they would be talked to top see if they realize it, if that doesn't help...well we don't see them much then.

Life is hard enough...why would I choose to make it harder....
GM John E Bono DC
9th Degree Grand Master Gaylord Method Kajukenbo
Full Instructor-Hartsell's Jeet Kune Do Grappling Assoc
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Champions aren't made in the gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them a desire,a dream,a vision

Offline Dave Jones

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Re: Have you noticed
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2014, 11:19:33 AM »
I agree sir, but talking is done directly to a person or people with voice or sign language / para-language.
I do it as well.  I can (and do) "talk story" for hours.
A forum post -which takes far longer to type- is a different form of communication which does not lend itself easily to "talking story".
Not to mention no one can jump in -mid sentence- with an anecdote or laugh along with you.

The question basically boils down to "Why is participation so low?", correct?
The answer is that very few people have any desire or need to be here.
If other people really wanted to be here then the occasional debate would not scare them off.
They would participate for the same reasons that the "hypocrisy, abuse of power, poor leadership" etc. do not scare me off - because they want to stay in contact with our Ohana and know what is going on overall. 
The problem presented is that there are also other ways of doing that which many of the 3400 probably prefer.
Facebook & twitter are basically "instant" right?  Why log in to this site just for information that you can have in a fraction of the time with virtually no effort?
There needs to be more, relevant information that cannot be had in a more efficient way for those sorts of people.
Pictures, videos, audio interviews...

If you believe the issue is is that people are "starting arguments" then I would say you are oversimplifying the problem.

If it will help and you think it will be better for Kajukenbo as a whole then I (for one, at least) can stop posting.
Like I said, I acknowledge that I am one of the most irreverent people here, so I would seem to be part of the problem. 
You are my senior (by rank, even if you are not in my lineage) as well as a moderator, so just say the word and I'll stop posting and replying.

However, don't be surprised if it is even more dead around here with people like me gone.
Look that the recent threads and you will see that the ones where people "debate" are the ones with the most replies & the most activity.
Sometimes these discussions go on for two or three pages.

The occasional seminar announcement and the like will probably be all that is left when the "troublemakers" are gone.

Here is the next question: What is the plan to bring the 3400 back after the troublemakers are gone?
Followed by: If you actually have a plan to bring them all back then why can't you implement it while the troublemakers are here?
« Last Edit: April 23, 2014, 12:51:52 PM by Dave Jones »
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Offline Dave Jones

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Re: Have you noticed
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2014, 01:01:37 PM »
I have a habit of editing posts for clarity and to fix typos.

In the last post, I added something which I think deserves pointing out in case you read the original text:

Facebook & Twitter are basically "instant" right? 
So why log in to this site just for information that you can have in a fraction of the time with virtually no effort?

There needs to be more, relevant, interesting information on the Kafe that cannot be had in a "more efficient" way for those sorts of people.
Pictures, videos, audio interviews...  Put stuff up that they cannot acquire on Facebook or YouTube.
Put must-have stuff up that requires a login to the Kafe to see if you want more traffic and participation here.

Put stuff up that is not available elsewhere and easily pasted into an email.
Someone interview GMs Bautisa, Kinji, Groff and the others to put up here - Audio/Video interviews, not just text.
Putting stuff on YouTube is great, if you want people to go to YouTube.com...
Put video files or MP3s here or link them from somewhere with the storage & bandwidth.
I can spare some bandwidth and storage to get us started if you need.

Other ideas -
A/V interview GM Harper about the Fight Quest show and put it up.
A/V interview Prof. Bishop and quiz him about the things in our history that he did not have space for in the books.
In other words, put an A/V record up from our seniors and progenitors -in their own words- while you still can.
Then notify everyone that the new material is here via FB/Twitter/whatevah.
Ironic use of those resources...?

Make this site relevant and useful to more people.  Debates are not the problem except for the people who do not like to be challenged.

That is a big part of the "action plan" for getting some of the 3400 back.
And there was not one negative thing in it...

Heck, I'd do the interviews for free and put them up on my site publicly, given the opportunity.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2014, 01:30:50 PM by Dave Jones »
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Offline John Bishop

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Re: Have you noticed
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2014, 01:55:14 PM »
Being a moderator or adviser on a few other martial arts forums and some hunting & fishing forums, I know the problem is not unique to the Cafe.  All of the forums have had a down turn in participation over the last few years.  Some moderate, some severe. 
Like Sifu Dave points out, many people now spend most of their internet time on Facebook or Twitter.  If your on Facebook, you know how much time people spend on it.  You see what they are eating for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.  You see where they are at any particular time of the day.  These social sites give everyone the ability to have their own forum, that they can control, and limit to a small group of friends and family, or the world.  It also allows them to have groups of like minded people, and business/organization pages.  I predict that free social pages like Facebook may end up replacing all of the websites that are not owned by major companies. 
At this time the Cafe is equal or better in participation as most of the other martial arts forums I see around the web now days.  Even though posts are down, the Cafe still averages around 8700 page views a day.  So many people are still reading, even though they are not logging in and posting.   About the only martial arts forums doing well are some of the MMA forums.  But most of the participants in those forums do not even do martial arts.  They just watch it and wear the Tap Out shirts. 
     
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"You watch, once I'm gone, all the snakes will start popping their heads up!"  Sijo Emperado