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To Pay or Not to Pay Instructors

Author Topic: To Pay or Not to Pay Instructors  (Read 13522 times)

Offline Jason Goldsmith

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Re: To Pay or Not to Pay Instructors
« Reply #45 on: March 14, 2014, 04:47:13 PM »

Not to choose sides, but I don't think that's a fair assessment of Sifu Jason's position--at least the way I'm following it.

Analogies of academic and other internships notwithstanding, if a Martial Arts instructor is tasked with the duties and responsibilities that are substantially similar to and consistent with those of the school/academy/gym owner, then in most states this rises to the level of an employer-employee relationship.  Sifu Jason and others have consistently pointed this out.  And yes, to know what the law allows and then set about circumventing it might indeed call a school owner's business ethics into question.  However, to simply illuminate that fact doesn't mean that one has a "pretty low opinion of most school owners' ethics."

Moreover, to acknowledge that greed in the martial arts business exists is fair.  But it's only fair to also acknowledge that greed in "Traditional" martial arts also exists (remember: Traditional school owners are usually in business, too).   

You are reading me 100% correctly Sifu Ron.
Sifu Jason Goldsmith
5th Degree, Wun Hop Kuen Do Kung Fu
Under GM Al Dacascos
Instructor--WHKD
Durham NC and Philadelphia PA
www.tkfmma.com

Offline cirillo

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Re: To Pay or Not to Pay Instructors
« Reply #46 on: March 14, 2014, 05:27:55 PM »

Sifu Ron may be reading you well, but probably not me.  I am fine with that.  I can only assume that Sifu Jason knows that I am not implying that he doesn't think highly of most martial arts school owners, I am just pointing out a matter of perspective.  He and I have known each other for a while and I think can have a simple debate without taking offense.

In this case, one  is assuming that the school owners cannot be trusted to handle things properly and another assumes that they can, which one would you rather be faced with?  Also, would you rather have someone tell you no, you can't do that or yes, you can do that, but to do it right, you have to do this, that and the other? 
Sifu Jeffrey D. Cirillo,  7th Degree Black belt in Wun Hop Kuen Do under GM Al Dacascos and 3rd Degree in FaChuan (Blossom Fist) under Sifu Bill Owens with over 35 years experience in the martial arts.
College Station, TX

Offline Jason Goldsmith

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Re: To Pay or Not to Pay Instructors
« Reply #47 on: March 14, 2014, 07:33:57 PM »

Sifu Ron may be reading you well, but probably not me.  I am fine with that.  I can only assume that Sifu Jason knows that I am not implying that he doesn't think highly of most martial arts school owners, I am just pointing out a matter of perspective.  He and I have known each other for a while and I think can have a simple debate without taking offense.

Correct s well.
Sifu Jason Goldsmith
5th Degree, Wun Hop Kuen Do Kung Fu
Under GM Al Dacascos
Instructor--WHKD
Durham NC and Philadelphia PA
www.tkfmma.com

Offline Jason Goldsmith

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Re: To Pay or Not to Pay Instructors
« Reply #48 on: March 14, 2014, 07:37:08 PM »

In this case, one  is assuming that the school owners cannot be trusted to handle things properly and another assumes that they can, which one would you rather be faced with?  Also, would you rather have someone tell you no, you can't do that or yes, you can do that, but to do it right, you have to do this, that and the other?

The body of evidence would suggest most owners don't do it right--not out of malice or ill-will, mind you, but it's still in violation of the law.  The whole "duties someone else would be paid for," such as the head instructor, is really the big.  An apprentice instructor program can work.  Having a volunteer who basically does full-blown instructor duties (opening/closing, sign-ups, etc) in addition to teaching really doesn't fly, no matter how you administer it.  This is where most gyms get in trouble. 

When I went into business teaching, I made sure to talk to a tax attorney and an accountant to cover my butt.  That is where I got this information, and it is why I am passing it on--so other people don't open themselves up to potential legal trouble. 
Sifu Jason Goldsmith
5th Degree, Wun Hop Kuen Do Kung Fu
Under GM Al Dacascos
Instructor--WHKD
Durham NC and Philadelphia PA
www.tkfmma.com

Offline Ron Baker

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Re: To Pay or Not to Pay Instructors
« Reply #49 on: March 14, 2014, 07:53:39 PM »

Sifu Ron may be reading you well, but probably not me.  I am fine with that.  I can only assume that Sifu Jason knows that I am not implying that he doesn't think highly of most martial arts school owners, I am just pointing out a matter of perspective.  He and I have known each other for a while and I think can have a simple debate without taking offense.

In this case, one  is assuming that the school owners cannot be trusted to handle things properly and another assumes that they can, which one would you rather be faced with?  Also, would you rather have someone tell you no, you can't do that or yes, you can do that, but to do it right, you have to do this, that and the other?
100% respect, Sifu Jeff. I mean no ill will nor do I intend to intrude on you and Sifu Jason's relationship.

To answer your question; I guess it depends on how one views laws and regulation.  Are they an intrusion or are they a necessary evil?  Philosophically speaking, they might be seen as an intrusion.  Practically speaking, they might be seen as keeping the honest school owner honest.  I see more of the latter than of the former.
Sigung (Shihan) Ron Baker
Kajukenbo 5280 MMA Foundation
Under GM Jason Groff
Ordonez Kajukenbo Ohana

Offline Jason Goldsmith

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Re: To Pay or Not to Pay Instructors
« Reply #50 on: March 15, 2014, 10:22:39 AM »
Personally I find the laws to be a pain, but I understand their general need.  For example, I am fine with paying my share of taxes, but they way they are administered for small businesses is a huge time drain.  It should be a lot easier than it is.
Sifu Jason Goldsmith
5th Degree, Wun Hop Kuen Do Kung Fu
Under GM Al Dacascos
Instructor--WHKD
Durham NC and Philadelphia PA
www.tkfmma.com

Offline CorderMMA

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Re: To Pay or Not to Pay Instructors
« Reply #51 on: May 08, 2014, 11:10:54 AM »
That was a great discussion, thanks for the information.
-Kelly
-Sigung Kelly Corder & Sr Sifu Jennifer Corder
Kajukenbo Arizona: Live Clean. Fight Dirty

sigung@kajuaz.com sifu@kajuaz.com

under Grandmaster George Lim < the late Grandmaster Allen Abad < Sijo Emperado
also under John Hackleman of the PIT MMA < Walter Godin