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To Pay or Not to Pay Instructors

Author Topic: To Pay or Not to Pay Instructors  (Read 14389 times)

Offline Ron Baker

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To Pay or Not to Pay Instructors
« on: March 11, 2014, 09:11:19 AM »
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The only thing I will mention is the paying of the instructors?  I guess its a good idea if you are pulling in a lot of $$$, but even then, instructors are just that, instructors, not owners.   One of the many things I liked about the dojo I came up in what that once you earned your blackbelt, you no longer paid tuition/dues, but were able to workout for free.  If our Sifu felt that you were instructor worthy, you were allowed to teach classes, and depending on the time you put in, would be where you would earn your degrees, not $$$.  Again, if an instructor wants to earn $$$, open your own dojo.  JMHO.

Quote
Agreed, I was trained -and feel- the same way. sir.
If you don't demonstrate consistently that you can teach and want to grow in the system then why would I think you deserve to be promoted?!

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It's actually illegal not to pay instructors.  Unless you are on the mat actively teaching them how to teach (in which case they are student instructors), you can't employ someone teaching for free.  Even if they don't pay dues, you are effectively paying them in tuition, which is still taxable if it is worth over $600 (which most gyms are).

Some really interesting positions on instructors and whether or not to pay them.  IMO, it comes down to Tradition vs. Business Model.

No one could fault a school owner from respecting Tradition.  It's what keeps martial arts real.  On the other hand, if you're gonna be in business then be in business.  That often means going with best practices in the industry.  Maybe not every business practice.  But at least the ones that will help make your business successful.

If our academy is pulling in $10K a month, then it's a no-brainer that at least a couple of instructors are on the payroll.  Maybe back in the day, we could have demanded free loyalty from a Sibak here or a Sihing there, and asked them to help teach and run the school.  But business is business today; very few people will help you grow rich for free. 

But then I'm not pulling in $10K a month, and have the luxury of a Sibak who helps teach without expecting a salary. 

Sometimes Traditions and Business Models don't work well together, and the business owner has to decide what their purpose is.
Sigung (Shihan) Ron Baker
Kajukenbo 5280 MMA Foundation
Under GM Jason Groff
Ordonez Kajukenbo Ohana

Offline Dave Jones

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Re: To Pay or Not to Pay Instructors
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2014, 09:53:42 AM »
I do not care if it is "tradition" or a "best business practice".
No one will get a 2nd degree from me until they have taught --for free-- for a year or more, depending on how many hours they teach and in what other ways they help with the class and school.
That is the listed requirement for 2nd degree and has been since day 1.

I do not pay them, ever.  Then again, I teach for free and NO ONE pays to train in my classes, except in blood & sweat.
If they are not actively teaching and/or training somewhere they will not get promoted by me.
For example, to be eligible for 3rd degree from me they must earn an instructor-level rank (i.e. black belt, coaching certification, whatever) in a DIFFERENT style or system from mine.  In other words, continue training with someone besides just me. 
That demonstrates that they want to grow as individuals and that they are actively TRAINING instead of just practicing the same stuff for another 3-5 years.
We say "Emulate, don't imitate!"  I do not want clones of me.  Instead, my goal is to train students who can beat my @$$ one day.

I am considering changing the 3rd degree requirement to "instructor-level rank" OR teaching (for free) for an additional 5 (6?) years. 
The only reason is that some black belts might not be able to afford lessons or find a different instructor/style that they want to train with/in.

All of my students and black belts understand this and I have never had a complaint.
In fact, I have been told many times how much my students respect and appreciate it.

If someone wants to pay their "apprentice instructors" then that is their call but if a student EXPECTS to be paid then you have a problem that you need to address, IMO.
You are DOING THEM A FAVOR by helping them learn how to teach and making them better martial artists in the process
They are learning more about the techniques they "think" they know and are learning how to articulate them to different people in different ways.
So you are helping them but they expect to get paid for it?  Bah.  Punch them in the mouth.  Hard.  Then tell them to train somewhere else.
"Sifu", 3rd degree is considered to be a "full instructor", right?  So under that rank, I would think you would want them to be PAYING YOU to teach!

When I was "coming up" in the martial arts, I often heard people talking about "giving back" to the martial arts.
Sounds like what that means to a lot of people is "getting paid".   Not even close to the same thing.

It is related to the discussion that goes along with promoting kids (say under 15) to brown belt, or black under age 16.
If you are trying to "make money" then you may have all sorts of justifications for why this is OK.
However, all of those excuses seem to fall off the map once you are not trying to get paid or cover your lease.
IMO, it seems to come down to how much you (or your black belts) care about the integrity of Kajukenbo and the skills compared to how much money is desired that month.
You start making exceptions and compromises to keep the cash flowing.  First one or two small changes, then more, then bigger.
Along with the changes come a bunch of justifications and excuses.

Many instructors in many schools and styles -including ours- are concerned about losing students due to the associated income.
What if your student likes the other school better?  Or they learn things you don't know?
Hard to hold on the the "master" image if a student can do things you cannot or can mop the floor with you, eh?
My solution is to make sure that my students KNOW my class is the best value and to make sure I am constantly training new things.
I also *encourage* my students (including under-belts) to check out and train in other schools/styles.
Besides, I want them to know more about "martial arts" than just what I have taught them.
I remember one of the Kajukenbo seminars in Vegas where my students and a few other people were doing some basic stick work.
One under-belt (green, IIRC) was watching and said something to the effect that he wished he could train with sticks.
I was confused and said "Here, use mine!"  He replied with something like his "sifu did not want him training with a weapon you would not have on the street."
I said "Could you not tear off a tree limb or car antenna in an emergency?  What if you disarmed an opponent who had a club?  Knowing how to use it might be useful.
I would think it is usually better to have a skill and understanding you do not need or cannot use than to need one you do not have.
Would you like me to get permission from your instructor?"
He said "I never thought of it that way...  No, thanks though."
My students were dumbfounded as to why you would pay to train in seminars all weekend if you were not allowed to participate in them.
They could not fathom why an instructor would not let his students go to whatever seminars, schools or tournaments they wished.
I had to explain that some instructors -even Kajukenbo instructors- were very protective of their incom... err. ...students.

It all comes down to teaching to improve vs. trying to make a buck.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 11:23:38 AM by Dave Jones »
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Offline Patrick Campbell

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Re: To Pay or Not to Pay Instructors
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2014, 04:34:35 PM »
One way a person might view a student teaching without getting paid for it would be if it were an internship. Interns in the human services field work for free because it is part of their educational requirements. They actually work and take alot of stress off staff because of their supervised efforts.

I am not charging my student anymore because he is a student black or 1st degree and assisting with the class he/she is making my life easier for sure but it is guarenteeing better quality instruction for the client in terms of client/instructor ratios and I am also able to better develop them as future independent instructors.

In the end it is all about the education and development of the instructor. They're not working for free they are training for free.

JMHO

Patrick
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Offline Tony49

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Re: To Pay or Not to Pay Instructors
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2014, 01:50:33 AM »
This is actually covered by The FLSA Act. Jason is actually correct if you don't meet certain criteria to qualify as a volunteer.  There have actually been studios sued and lost due to having kids teach classes.  For the Instructor who requires some one to teach to get their next black belt could be consider coercion.

Here is another link...  http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/f12/not-paying-your-instructors-probably-illegal-2598263/

Fair Labor Standards Act

According to the U.S. Department of Labor (DOL), Employment Standards Administration, the ?Fair Labor Standards Act, 29 U.S.C. ?201 et seq., recognizes the generosity and public benefits of volunteering, and does not pose obstacles to bona fide volunteer efforts for charitable and public purposes." See Wage and Hour Opinion Letter FLSA2005-51 (November 10, 2005). In enacting these laws, Congress sought to ensure that volunteer activities were neither impeded nor discouraged while, at the same time, minimizing the potential for abuse by employers who might seek to avoid the payment of wages by pressuring employees to ?volunteer" their services. 29 C.F.R. ?553.101(b). Thus, while volunteerism is to be encouraged, federal regulators will be on the lookout for employers who classify individuals as volunteers when they should really be treated as, and compensated as, employees.
Antonio Lucero

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Offline Ron Baker

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Re: To Pay or Not to Pay Instructors
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2014, 09:13:32 AM »
The tradition of martial arts will never die.  But the industry of martial arts is alive and is moving in many different directions.  I have only a few dozen students, and charge them a monthly rate.  Therefore I'm in business.  Along the way, I am faced with business decisions that must be made.  So far, none of those decisions involve paying staff.  But what if next month, we blow up and instead of 40 students we have 200 students.  Three choices: (1) stay in the market and make market-based decisions, (2) stay in the market and pretend I'm a traditionalist; or (3) be a true traditionalist and teach all for free or a token amount.

The business model for the 200 student scenario is usually the McDojo model.  Hate it.  But do I hate it enough to give up gross revenues of $300,000 a year?  Not so much, really.  So we make "adjustments" so that we can try to keep it real, while continuing to make sound business decisions.  Now, what if I have a sibak.  My sibak is smart; he or she has a general idea of how much money we're making.  My sibak makes a "business decision" to approach me and wants to get paid a salary in lieu of higher rank.  Am I a still a $300K a year business man, or am I just a humble sifu who teaches for the love of the art?  Does the law require me to pay him or her?  Whatever decision I make, the market will determine if it was the right one.

Such is the business of martial arts.

   
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Offline Dave Jones

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Re: To Pay or Not to Pay Instructors
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2014, 10:55:57 AM »
This is actually covered by The FLSA Act. Jason is actually correct if you don't meet certain criteria to qualify as a volunteer.  There have actually been studios sued and lost due to having kids teach classes.  For the Instructor who requires some one to teach to get their next black belt could be consider coercion.

You are off base here Antonio. 

(1) I never said I have "kids" teach classes. You have made a broad and generalized statement.
In fact, I have never even tested a student for black belt before they were at least 16 (and that was at GM Jason Groff's prompting!) and as of now, no one under 30 has ever been promoted to 2nd degree by me.
Only black belts teach classes in my gym and they work it out among themselves as to WHO teaches if I am unavailable to teach.  I do not decide who teaches - THEY do.

(2) I don't care if I lose students.  Again, I teach for *free* not to make money, which seems to be the crux of the "business concerns".
If *I* am not paid or an "employee" then your implication that my "volunteers" should be is ridiculous at best. 
We EASILY fall into the "charitable and public purposes" category, especially since running my gym costs me more money out of pocket each year than I care to think about.
I am fortunate that Joanna accepts this and that she has never once given me a hard time about it.

(3) It is funny that you want to imply "coercion" but in your business model your students are basically PAYING CASH for their black belts, which could be considered extortion.
See?  2 people can play the hyperbole-to-the-extreme game.  Please do not be absurd.
Requiring them to help teach for a year is no different than you requiring a black belt to continue training with you for a year to be eligible for promotion;
except that
  (a) in my case they should be improving as martial artists and teachers and
  (b) my classes cost them nothing except time.

(4) My students are free to train with whomever they wish whenever they wish.  They CHOOSE to train with me with the full understanding of what I expect of them as students and as black belts.  If they do not like my requirements they are free to leave at any time, because they are not under some sort of contractual obligation where they are paying money even if they do not attend classes.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 11:24:18 AM by Dave Jones »
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Offline Tony49

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Re: To Pay or Not to Pay Instructors
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2014, 12:59:43 PM »
Didn't say you had kids teaching.  I was just pointing out that this happen a few years back at a studio that was taking advantage of their students.  As for teaching and how this all plays only a court can determine.  I was just listing some info since this question was asked.  I wasn't attacking you or your way of teaching. 

By the way, you have made a lot of assumptions about me and the way I run the business. I don't have contracts when students are not there they don't pay.  I try my best to not have my students teach class unless ill and even then I try to be there off in a corner.  Like Jason said if you are there when they are teaching than you might be okay.  Many people miss label instructors as Independent Contractors and Volunteers.  Even if you teach for free the all mighty government still might want you to establish a monetary value to what you offer and to send the info in for your Black Belts so that they can pay taxes on this.  This I consider absurd but I don't make up the laws just like the "use tax" most people break that law as well.

Paying somebody to teach you something is not extortion (if it was then colleges would owe a lot of people money) having them provide a service for free might be.  You got to remember these laws where set up along time ago to help protect people from big business they don't always make the most sense.  Don't get me wrong I believe black belts should help out and the reason we don't see this more in the courts is cause no one complains about it.  Your right reacquiring somebody to teach for a year might also cause problems unless you can show its part of the learn processes sort of like student teaching.  But even in student teaching you get paid.  Not a court so not sure. 

I was just passing along the info.  I didn't mean to attack you, I was just pointing out in general for all of us who require teach hours we might be on a slipper slope.  From my understanding as long as people don't have set days or times they have to teach then they can be considered a volunteer.  Apparently, they also can't help with direct growth of the business.  Her in California a lot of business are being sued for non-paid internship.  In fact many internships are now paid.

Like I said before didn't mean to attack you.  I was just pointing out that some of us might be on a slipper slope when it comes to this subject.


This is actually covered by The FLSA Act. Jason is actually correct if you don't meet certain criteria to qualify as a volunteer.  There have actually been studios sued and lost due to having kids teach classes.  For the Instructor who requires some one to teach to get their next black belt could be consider coercion.

You are off base here Antonio. 

(1) I never said I have "kids" teach classes. You have made a broad and generalized statement.
In fact, I have never even tested a student for black belt before they were at least 16 (and that was at GM Jason Groff's prompting!) and as of now, no one under 30 has ever been promoted to 2nd degree by me.
Only black belts teach classes in my gym and they work it out among themselves as to WHO teaches if I am unavailable to teach.  I do not decide who teaches - THEY do.

(2) I don't care if I lose students.  Again, I teach for *free* not to make money, which seems to be the crux of the "business concerns".
If *I* am not paid or an "employee" then your implication that my "volunteers" should be is ridiculous at best. 
We EASILY fall into the "charitable and public purposes" category, especially since running my gym costs me more money out of pocket each year than I care to think about.
I am fortunate that Joanna accepts this and that she has never once given me a hard time about it.

(3) It is funny that you want to imply "coercion" but in your business model your students are basically PAYING CASH for their black belts, which could be considered extortion.
See?  2 people can play the hyperbole-to-the-extreme game.  Please do not be absurd.
Requiring them to help teach for a year is no different than you requiring a black belt to continue training with you for a year to be eligible for promotion;
except that
  (a) in my case they should be improving as martial artists and teachers and
  (b) my classes cost them nothing except time.

(4) My students are free to train with whomever they wish whenever they wish.  They CHOOSE to train with me with the full understanding of what I expect of them as students and as black belts.  If they do not like my requirements they are free to leave at any time, because they are not under some sort of contractual obligation where they are paying money even if they do not attend classes.
Antonio Lucero

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Offline Jason Goldsmith

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Re: To Pay or Not to Pay Instructors
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2014, 04:56:08 PM »
Antonio,

Thank you for backing me up on this.  This was the law I was referring to.

Dave,

If you would like to be rude and start using odd titles (aka MR. GOLDSMITH) then please feel free to either refer to me as Sifu Jason, or Dr. Goldsmith.  One of the two is fine.

Now, speaking to the original point I made, if you are teaching for free, and the business is essentially a hobby (something where you lose more than you make), then you can likely get away with not paying your instructors, and instead providing them free tuition.  If you are supervising them during the teaching, and actively teaching them while they lead the class, you are also in the clear.

However, if you are making money teaching (even if it's only a few hundred/month), and you give your black belt a key and he teaches independently of you, he is an employee.  If he sets his own hours, he can be a contract employee, but he is still and employee and you are legally obligated to pay him.

Finally, you seem to be implying that paying your instructors is somehow in line with being a McDojo, since money is now in the equation and people will chose money over rank standards.  For the record, I prove this whole notion wrong, as do many other schools, Kaju and otherwise, that I know.  I pay all of my staff, have relatively low monthly grosses (far less than the mentioned $10k/month) and barely see any of what the kwoon brings in.  We also don't have contracts at my gym, and would rather have some quit than not be the right fit for us.  We aren't a McDojo, rank is never comprised for money (we average 2 belt tests/year and average time from white to black with no prior training is 8 years), and yet we still can pay our staff a reasonable rate for their time.  Your entire supposition seems wrong.  You can make money and teach with integrity, you just have to stick to it.  In my case, it works because I do not rely on the gym for my family's income, although some of my instructors do.
Sifu Jason Goldsmith
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Offline Patrick Campbell

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Re: To Pay or Not to Pay Instructors
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2014, 05:55:24 PM »
So I guess at the end of the day it is still the option of the instructor. AS it seems that there is certainly a law governing this then there is the potential for law suites if instructors are teaching "for free." The instructor is free to make that call and must live with the consequences if it backfires. Either way it is still the option of the instructor and how he runs his/her school. 

patrick
 
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Offline Dave Jones

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Re: To Pay or Not to Pay Instructors
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2014, 07:17:11 PM »
Dave,

If you would like to be rude and start using odd titles (aka MR. GOLDSMITH) then please feel free to either refer to me as Sifu Jason, or Dr. Goldsmith.  One of the two is fine.

Dr. Sifu Jason Goldsmith,

I am not clear on why my use of a salutation because I did not know your title offhand is somehow rude, but I apologize.
I will endeavor to use it/them in the future if you so wish.

Now, speaking to the original point I made, if you are teaching for free, and the business is essentially a hobby (something where you lose more than you make), then you can likely get away with not paying your instructors, and instead providing them free tuition.  If you are supervising them during the teaching, and actively teaching them while they lead the class, you are also in the clear.
I have said clearly and directly multiple times that I do not charge nor am I paid.
In short, the claim that it is "illegal" for me to require my black belts to demonstrate their teaching skills and ability to transmit our system {for FREE} as a requirement for promotion is simply wrong.  Maybe I have it phrased poorly or should call it something else.  I can work on that and I appreciate the feedback.
If you want to call it an "unpaid internship", "student teaching" or whatever, then fine.  My point is still valid.

Finally, you seem to be implying that paying your instructors is somehow in line with being a McDojo
That is not what I said, nor is it what I meant to imply.
I said that when you start teaching to make a buck then you need to start worrying about this sort of stuff.
Paying instructors is an example.
The threat of becoming a McDojo is not in the cards if you teach for free.  That is my point.
I do not need to make any "concessions" anytime.  I teach what I want, how I want, to whom I want, when I want.
But as a person who is PAID to teach, I would think you are full of it if you claimed you've never made any changes or adaptations to meet the demands of the "market" or to keep enrollment up.
I stand by that.      "The lady doth protest too much, methinks." -- W.S.

I have no intention of arguing or debating this with you.
You have referenced a law about paid labor in a case where no one is getting CHARGED and I am NOT GETTING PAID.
Until a labor lawyer says otherwise, I will stand by my belief that you are mistaken.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 07:42:59 PM by Dave Jones »
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Offline Dave Jones

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Re: To Pay or Not to Pay Instructors
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2014, 07:20:26 PM »
By the way, you have made a lot of assumptions about me and the way I run the business.
I made no assumptions about YOUR business sir.
I made observations about teaching martial arts as a business, in general.
The point is that a business must adapt to market forces to survive.
Therefore, if someone was to claim they have changed absolutely NOTHING about what they teach or how they teach once they went into "business" then I'd believe them to be a liar.  I do not see how that is possible.

Like I said before didn't mean to attack you.
No offense taken or intended, sir.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 07:44:25 PM by Dave Jones »
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Offline Jason Goldsmith

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Re: To Pay or Not to Pay Instructors
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2014, 09:16:04 PM »
So I guess at the end of the day it is still the option of the instructor. AS it seems that there is certainly a law governing this then there is the potential for law suites if instructors are teaching "for free." The instructor is free to make that call and must live with the consequences if it backfires. Either way it is still the option of the instructor and how he runs his/her school. 

patrick

Yes.  It is your choice whether or not you comply with the law.
Sifu Jason Goldsmith
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Under GM Al Dacascos
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Offline Jason Goldsmith

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Re: To Pay or Not to Pay Instructors
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2014, 09:45:18 PM »
Dr. Sifu Jason Goldsmith,

I am not clear on why my use of a salutation because I did not know your title offhand is somehow rude, but I apologize.
I will endeavor to use it/them in the future if you so wish.

It was rude because my title is clearly displayed on the signature line.  I am not one for formalities generally speaking, so calling me Jason is fine  However, when you chose to use Mr. Goldsmith, I could only assume it was a deliberate slight towards me, given my signature tag.

Quote
I have said clearly and directly multiple times that I do not charge nor am I paid.
In short, the claim that it is "illegal" for me to require my black belts to demonstrate their teaching skills and ability to transmit our system {for FREE} as a requirement for promotion is simply wrong.  Maybe I have it phrased poorly or should call it something else.  I can work on that and I appreciate the feedback.
If you want to call it an "unpaid internship", "student teaching" or whatever, then fine.  My point is still valid.

In your case, because you do not charge, you are fine. 

Quote
That is not what I said, nor is it what I meant to imply.
I said that when you start teaching to make a buck then you need to start worrying about this sort of stuff.
Paying instructors is an example.
The threat of becoming a McDojo is not in the cards if you teach for free.  That is my point.
I do not need to make any "concessions" anytime.  I teach what I want, how I want, to whom I want, when I want.
But as a person who is PAID to teach, I would think you are full of it if you claimed you've never made any changes or adaptations to meet the demands of the "market" or to keep enrollment up.
I stand by that.      "The lady doth protest too much, methinks." -- W.S.

I have no intention of arguing or debating this with you.
You have referenced a law about paid labor in a case where no one is getting CHARGED and I am NOT GETTING PAID.
Until a labor lawyer says otherwise, I will stand by my belief that you are mistaken.

And how do you afford the facility in which you teach?  I charge people so my students can have a nice place to train.  Since I charge people, and thus I have a for-profit business (registering it as a non-profit was cost prohibitive), my instructors are employees and must be paid by law.

Finally, this whole discussion started because you objected to advice given on a TV show to a for profit business that charges people.  Your objection is what I disagree with.  The advice was sound.  The school on the TV show, as a small business, presumably charges people.  Thus, they are required by law to pay their instructors.  That is all.
Sifu Jason Goldsmith
5th Degree, Wun Hop Kuen Do Kung Fu
Under GM Al Dacascos
Instructor--WHKD
Durham NC and Philadelphia PA
www.tkfmma.com

sgns1173

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Re: To Pay or Not to Pay Instructors
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2014, 02:44:50 AM »
IMHO, we are becoming sensitive when we need to address individual(s) by their martial arts rank on the Kajukenbo Café.  You may address me by my first or last name, Mr. Scott, Sifu, or my current rank, Grandmaster.  We have to respect each other’s statements, even we agree or disagree.  For all that have participated, I respect everyone's view.     

FYI: I have never paid any on my black belts, because I teach and they assist me.  I have never had a problem with the State of Hawaii or Federal Government, as long as I pay my fair share of taxes. 

Gerry Scott
     

Offline Dave Jones

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Re: To Pay or Not to Pay Instructors
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2014, 08:23:34 AM »
It was rude because my title is clearly displayed on the signature line.  I am not one for formalities generally speaking, so calling me Jason is fine  However, when you chose to use Mr. Goldsmith, I could only assume it was a deliberate slight towards me, given my signature tag.

You had not yet posted in this thread so I did not have your signature line readily available.
There are several individuals named "Jason" here, including GM Jason Groff who I frequently acknowledge. 
My using a salutation was a way of showing courtesy and keeping the content unambiguous.
You CHOSE to assume it was a slight against you.  That was your doing, not mine.

Since you asked, I can "afford the facility" because we train out of donated space.
I looked around until I found a suitable location and that was it.
We've had to moved once in 7 or 8 years but that is not big deal.
I also try to set money aside for training and equipment requirements, pretty much every paycheck. 
$20 here or $50 there adds up.  It is not that complicated.
I skip a lunch one day or order 1 less book from amazon and buy a new kick-shield instead.

The idea that Sigung Robert Kingi's black belts were not helping out enough or taking their roles and responsibility seriously was what I object to.
The fact that one or more of them felt they deserved to be paid instead of helping out out of respect and appreciation is what I object to.

If they do not train there {with him or GM Kingi} then I can see why they should get paid.
But claiming it is simply "illegal" to have what amounts to an unpaid internship requirement for your black belts is ludicrous.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2014, 08:26:27 AM by Dave Jones »
Dave Jones, CQB Kajukenbo Club - Fenton, MO
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