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New grand master

Author Topic: New grand master  (Read 10467 times)

Offline cirillo

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Re: New grand master
« Reply #30 on: January 30, 2014, 08:15:50 PM »
I am finding this discussion somewhat like deja vu.  If you have been around long enough, these questions come up over and over again.  Personally, every time I end up making the same conclusion.  Most facts change over time, particularly in the martial arts and in Hawaii, dependent upon the person telling them.  The end result is that the history is probably not actually that important.  What is important is whether what we are now teaching is good.  I would say yes.  I guess that I am done worrying about it.

Regarding the issues raised.  Everyone is correct, based on the documentation that I have seen and information exchanged between the founders and various groups.  Certain people were promoted.  Sijo promoted people.  What certificates were used probably don't matter.  When it comes to first this or first that, it is actually a matter of perspective.  Some people want it one way, so they present it that way.  Others want it another way, so they present it differently.

Did Ed Parker come out of Kajukenbo?  Is there any difference between what was called Hawaiian Kenpo, American Kenpo and Kajukenbo?  Really, it is clear that Kenpo (as we know it in the U.S. currently) is often taught by people that have or had an affiliation with Kajukenbo.  Does that make them Kajukenbo? or us Kenpo?

Some of the early people in Kajukenbo (recognized as Kajukenbo people by most people) would have said that they trained and taught Kenpo, not Kajukenbo, and that the name did not exist when they trained.  What about Cha-3?

Nice, isn't it.  Well, in my opinion, the deeper you dig, the more you find out that there are not any 'correct' answers to these questions.  Everyone has an axe to grind and a story to tell.  Everyone twists the facts, even when they can show documentation, they show what they want to show.

In fact, we are not unique in this problem.  Pretty much all martial arts have this problem, Kung Fu, Tae Kwon Do, Aikido, Hapkido, etc.  Most stories that are told about their histories are wrong and when you dig, you find out they are not true.  So what matters?  The history or how we fight?

I know my answer and I quit trying to find 'facts' on these issues.  Most of the actual facts I found, didn't help me become a better martial artist, they just embarrassed somebody, confused students and made enemies.  Keep searching the histories or train?  Your choice.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2014, 08:20:20 PM by cirillo »
Sifu Jeffrey D. Cirillo,  7th Degree Black belt in Wun Hop Kuen Do under GM Al Dacascos and 3rd Degree in FaChuan (Blossom Fist) under Sifu Bill Owens with over 35 years experience in the martial arts.
College Station, TX

sgns1173

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Re: New grand master
« Reply #31 on: January 31, 2014, 12:06:04 AM »
Aloha Dave,

Why don't people ask Uncle Frank these things?  He was probably there then and he is still with us now.
Why?  Because he might tell you something you don't want to hear?
You can ask Jason Groff and he can probably call him tonight.  For the record, his birthday is coming up, February 15th


FYI:  GM Groff would not call Uncle on anything what was said on the café.  Furthermore Uncle Frank does not pay attention to what is being said on the café.  He is in poor health and he needs to keep his mind free of Kajukenbo politics. 

Respectfully,

Gerry Scott   

Offline Dave Jones

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Re: New grand master
« Reply #32 on: January 31, 2014, 08:54:43 AM »
So can you share with us on what CO-Founder Joe Holck and Uncle Frank had said to you?

Aloha sir.

I am referring mainly to the reality that the "Black Belt Society" stuff is a lie.  If that is a lie then all bets are off concerning the veracity of everything else we hear:
Joe Holck was the ONLY member of the "Black Belt Society" who was a black belt at the alleged time when "Kajukenbo" was Founded.
Uncle Frank never trained in "sekeino ryu" or whatever you want to call it.  He trained in DZR with Holck.
Peter Choo was not a Tang Soo Do black belt -which would be virtually impossible to be because of when TSD was founded- but was in fact a shotokan stylist, who practiced kenpo with some of the others.

Things like that.  Even though some of this is "common" knowledge now, it was not in the summer of 2000. The problem is, many people still repeat the old fabrications and relay the information as fact.

THAT is the value of the internet: it makes it easier for people to ask informed questions and do research.
I suspect that may be why Sijo did not care for it much - talking story takes a backseat to finding the facts resulting in more drama.

The irony is, if they told the TRUTH in the first place there would probably be less drama and less questions.

I look forward to seeing you in Hawaii for Uncle Frank's birthday!


BTW, I just saw your edit to my quote: Joe Holck preferred his DZR "Shihan" title
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 09:27:55 AM by Dave Jones »
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Offline Dave Jones

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Re: New grand master
« Reply #33 on: January 31, 2014, 09:05:10 AM »
FYI:  GM Groff would not call Uncle on anything what was said on the café.  Furthermore Uncle Frank does not pay attention to what is being said on the café.  He is in poor health and he needs to keep his mind free of Kajukenbo politics. 

Fair enough.  My point was that many people in Kajukenbo choose to ignore the opportunity to get the truth and instead choose to argue about which lie is more important.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 09:17:46 AM by Dave Jones »
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sgns1173

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Re: New grand master
« Reply #34 on: January 31, 2014, 10:43:15 AM »
Aloha Dave,

Is this what CO-Founder Holck and Uncle Frank said to you? 

Offline Dave Jones

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Re: New grand master
« Reply #35 on: January 31, 2014, 02:40:04 PM »
That was the gist of the conversations, collectively, yes.
I will not claim that is somehow verbatim.
It was also a matter of listening to what was *not* being said.

I got the impression that both individuals were trying to not make waves.

The exception is the TSD part.  That information did not come from a conversation with either of them.
As I recall, that information came from an email I found online from Co-Founder Peter Choo's son.
I knew the dates when the phrase "Tang Soo Do" was in common use didn't line up so I looked into it.

The fact is I had maybe 5 minutes total to speak with Uncle Frank and maybe 10 minutes to speak with Shihan Holck.
I was only a 3rd degree at the time and I am sure they were both humoring me somewhat.
I do not claim to have any evidence to back any of this up but FWIW GM Jason has since confirmed that Uncle Frank has said he did not even know what "sekeino" was, right on this forum. 
What is odd is that I see you posted in the thread, so you must already know this.  Maybe you are just messing with me?
http://www.kajukenbo.com/cafe/index.php?topic=6677.0

I have no reason to doubt the veracity of either Co-Founder, especially when their stories meshed pretty well.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 02:50:23 PM by Dave Jones »
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Offline Iakona

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Re: New grand master
« Reply #36 on: February 01, 2014, 01:36:20 AM »

Aloha all,

This may be an appropriate time to chime. Having dim sum with Uncle Frank today he is still very much in tune and cares about Kajukenbo, which he helped create. It is true he is not concerned with the politics and disagreements that occur here on this site. But I do keep him apprized of what is going on with Kajukenbo in general.

I think Mr. Cirillo made a good point about our history being perception based. All truths are true to the believer Trying to run down and confirm what has been written over the years to find a truth that makes sense will lead to wasted time and dead ends. Most of the original places in Hawaii where the training occurred no longer exist. Even the place where I teach at Palama Settlement is the second building, the original being torn down. Over the years as Sijo was developing Kajukenbo, he obviously changed his mind numerous times about the organization names, the ranks and titles, the curriculum, who his successors were, etc. But that is nothing new, all the way back to Mitose in our Kenpo line things were made up as they went. That doesn't detract from their exceptional skill and innovation. I think we could better Honor the work of the Founders and subsequent pioneers by focusing on developing, refining, and perpetuating the art as Sijo did, instead of being stuck on whateva frivolous details. Even if some unabridged truth about the history was revealed, people are pretty set in their ways and are gonna be hard pressed to change what they have been taught to believe all along. 

As far as our future, I doubt there is any one person or even board that can unite Kajukenbo, currently. I would be happily amazed if that did occur. I think it was Sigung Patrick that said on the other thread that the key to our longevity is gonna be a respectful and peaceful coexistence. I see people panicking about what happened to AK is inevitable for Kajukenbo. I hate to break the news to ya, but Kajukenbo has been fragmented for years. Sijo was the keystone to what kept most of it together. KSDI seems to be reorganizing and taking a different route. Because all of Kajukenbo is not equally represented by the BOA and we can't even get a straight answer openly on here as to the current status of it, I'm all for the legitimate Branch, Method, Organization, or Lineage Head be made a 10th degree to perpetuate the art and be able to promote others up. That is not about anybody's pride, ego, time, or personal achievement; it is about keeping Kajukenbo alive and thriving. Otherwise, I see, as mentioned, we will die out in the next few generations, because we are afraid of moving forward and somehow disrespecting Sijo's memory. The Founders and pioneers had their time, the current generation can pick up the torch and Honor them by keeping the flame burning. It is a natural progression that occurs in martial arts throughout history.

Mahalo.
GM Jason Groff
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