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Long Range or Close Quarters?

Author Topic: Long Range or Close Quarters?  (Read 9450 times)

Offline Patrick Campbell

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Re: Long Range or Close Quarters?
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2012, 02:34:18 PM »
The survival key regardless of range is to keep your vitals protected at all times. As the situation escalates in terms of intention and violence (if it isn't already critical) you are still in a protected position and simultaneously capable of lethal response. In other words - never let your "guard" down or turn your back.

Patrick
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Offline Patrick Campbell

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Re: Long Range or Close Quarters?
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2012, 02:45:05 PM »
"On guard" means that you are mentally, emotionally, and spiritually alert and aware and ready. This doesn't necessasrily mean that you are in a fighting stance (conventional) because any stance is a fighting stance and we must be ready to defend and attack from any position that we are in - readiness. We can be in a better position for example by putting an obstacle between us and the potential or real threat. There are many examples of being in a guarded physical position without actually "putting up your hands and assuming a fighting position."

Just a fews thoughts.

Patrick
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 02:48:35 PM by Patrick Campbell »
Patrick "Kaponookalani" Campbell, Ph.D.
KAJUKENBO - Professor Kai Li - ETS / HKA
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BJJ - ETS / USFBJJ / Master Joe Moreira
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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Long Range or Close Quarters?
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2012, 03:10:01 PM »
very important points.....nice
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Offline Bautista's

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Re: Long Range or Close Quarters?
« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2012, 04:58:33 PM »
Old school.......hit him before he hits you
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Offline GM ALAN M. REYES

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Re: Long Range or Close Quarters?
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2012, 06:05:58 PM »
I would guess that comments are based on knowledge. That one has acquired from Kaj. Training, or in some cases “life” as in getting , “ jumped”. But as in all our training, doesn’t it boil done to muscle memory, from the different tricks or knowledge learned. Part of this and part of that. Lethality comes from anyone that violates my personal space wether  its at an individual level or when love ones are involved. The idea of  controlling a situation is first, whatever it takes. Like most, I’m old and would never want to think of wrestling on the ground, or a grappling situation. And in most offensive situations they are coming at you hard and fast. So you must reach in your cup of knowledge and sprinkle the required amount, but in the case of seasoned fighters, one must dump the whole cup on them. Knowledge in this case is everything, from close to extended combat training, use of surroundings, or objects, as a shield or a weapon. But as in most things in life one must be ready for all aspects. So I guess that’s where the accumulation of knowledge comes into play. Your ability is measured on how well you have understood, or you have learned. At a physical level or a technical level.
On a personal note, throughout the years I have never seen Sijo grapple or wrestle on the ground, with the exception of, Throws, take downs or ground chokes.But in saying that, he did like to watching the ground work concieved from it. So time after time, Sijo would say,you have to learn to fight from the ground up. But that man’s knowledge cup was always FULL.

As always
With all due respect
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« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 06:08:35 PM by GM ALAN M.REYES »
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Offline Wado

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Re: Long Range or Close Quarters?
« Reply #20 on: August 11, 2012, 05:39:32 PM »
Range is still relative, no matter what range it is, it is what you do at that range that matters. For example, when unable to put something solid between me and the enemy, I was trained to back pedal in tactical firearms courses. The idea was that I trained to be a better shot than the enemy, so as I moved away, they were more likely to miss when I was still able to hit them.

The further something is away, the better you need to be with timing and accuracy, particularly on the move. At the same time, anything one can do to the enemy, they can do to you. So if I can thrust them with a spear, they can do the same to me. The idea of being a hard to hit target becomes very important at longer ranges in such that techniques such as thrusting with spear, you keep on one point so that the spear is like a shield for you when you thrust. You do not leave a limb hanging out to the side to be chopped off, unprotected, for instance.

As one gets into close in fighting, the frequency of attack can become more important than the timing and accuracy of the attack. Many martial arts do not fight close in on one point but rather are more squared up to the enemy so that both sides of the body can be used for attack and defense at the same time. In fact, grappling arts get very good at using constant pressure, blocking movement, and positioning in order to isolate parts of the enemy's body so that the enemy cannot effectively use their whole body to attack and defend with.

What I'm getting at is that close in fighting is where a lot of decisive damage is done. Since the whole body can be used as a weapon... punches, knees, kicks, biting, ripping, grappling, etc., strong fighting spirit and the ability to go from zero to one hundred percent in an instant can be critical. It can get to a point, IMHO, that close in fighting ability gets to trading blows and in such cases, maybe there has to be a better way.

I've always been a close in fighter, but around my black belt days in karate, one senior black belt was telling me I had to work more on my long ranged fighting. He said my close in fighting was good, but he being much taller and longer reach than me was able to land hits on me and make it very difficult for me to get close in.

One of the things I learned was that in the 1920s there were many challenge matches between boxers and grapplers and the boxers usually came out on top. One of the reasons was that boxers were able to use longer ranged punches effectively to keep the grapplers away. I don't just mean boxing punches like the torso twisting ones we often see these days, but rather longer ranged punching techniques. A grappler could punch or kick also, so the boxer's punches were longer ranged than the punches used by the grapplers. I witnesses something of this type of fight last year at one of our fight nights. The last MMA bout had a fellow come out of retirement to fight and during the fight he was able to punch his opponent in the eyes and nose effectively. His opponent did shoot in a few times but was unable to take down the guy who sprawled and threw the opponent off him. The fight was stopped due to excessive bleeding by the opponent from around the eyes.

So close in fighting is where you have to be able to fight in real situation, but any longer ranged skills can definitely help you come out on top.

Even historically in China, similar results with longer ranged attacking skill coming out on top as per this passage from Comprehensive Asian Fighting Arts, by Donn F. Draeger and Robert W. Smith. Fourth printing, 1983:

Quote
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National competitions occurred in Nanking in 1928, in Shanghai and Hangchou in 1929, and again in Nanking in 1933. These tournaments drew participants from all parts of China. the fighters usually were senior students of famed masters, who had won provincial contests. Chu Kuo-fu, a hsing-i boxer, won first place in Nanking in 1928 by the unusual method of election. There were so many major injuries that the tournament was stopped and the participants voted for the winner. Tsao Yan-hai won first place in Shanghai in 1929 but could do no better than fourth place in Nanking in the same year. Liu Kao-sheng, nearly sixty but big and strong, entered the Nanking tournament. in training he hung a heavy stone around his neck and swung it. He could slap bricks and shatter them. Some feared that he might kill someone. liu was too slow, however, and was eliminated by Tsao Yan-hai, who managed to get only a fourth place in this tournament.

Many provinces conducted annual boxing contests, Honan having at least seven and Szechwan three during the Republic. the arrangement of these tournaments was fairly standard. there were displays and competitions with and without weapons (the arms competitions were performed with wooden weapons). In the boxing, three rounds of three minutes each constituted a match. The fighting was free but for restrictions against attacks to the eyes, throat, and groin (fist attacks against the eyes and throat were within the rules, but finger attacks were not). Grappling was permitted. An elaborate point system decided the winner of a round (a fighter knocked down twice in a round lost it) and the referee was the sole arbiter. A chief judge provided him assistance if requested. If a fighter won the first two rounds, no third round was fought, which ruling would seem to penalize the single-punch knockout artist who plods along, awaiting his chance. This type of fight meant that a fighter had to be aggressive or he would be outpointed irrespective of his punching ability. Draws advanced both fighters to the next round.

In general in the tournaments, northern fighters used their legs more than southern fighters. The northerners were inclined to move offensively with their feet closer together and to use longer punches, whereas the southerners favored a deep defensive stance with legs further apart, employing short punches and the scissors tactic (a locking-block) effectively. More often than not, northern boxers won over their southern antagonists. Ch'en P'an-ling said once that this was evident in the fact that boxers face south, not north, in acknowledgment of the north's power.
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Offline Danjo

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Re: Long Range or Close Quarters?
« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2012, 11:01:14 AM »
While all ranges ought to be trained, most fights go to close range pretty quickly. If you have time to see them coming at you, then you're in pretty good shape to begin with in terms of having an advantage.

Like GM Reyes was saying, have a personal space that you don't let people invade, unless you're on an elevator or something, to give you the best chance in a fight.

The Gracies made their reputation on closing with martial artists who were only familiar with tournement style fighting which was all long range. Once they got through the initial range and closed with them, it was all over because no one knew how to fight in the closer ranges, even on their feet.

Remember in the Fight Quest video when one of them tried to close and do a leg take-down and got an elbow in the back that laid him out for nearly 30 minutes?

I would primarily emphasize close-range stand up fighting (short-punching range, knee, elbow and head butt), but not neglect the other two ranges in training such as long range (long-punching range and kicking) and ground fighting since you never know what will be useful and don't want to be "stuck" if you find yourself there.
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