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Long Range or Close Quarters?

Author Topic: Long Range or Close Quarters?  (Read 9640 times)

Offline Ron Baker

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Long Range or Close Quarters?
« on: August 02, 2012, 03:16:29 PM »
Lots of different "flavors" of Kaju out there.  Some teach and train long range techniques, while some train and teach close quarters.  And some mix it up.

What's your preference ... long range or close quarters or both?  Why?

Mahalo's for sharing your thoughts and knowledge.

Sigung (Shihan) Ron Baker
Kajukenbo 5280 MMA Foundation
Under GM Jason Groff
Ordonez Kajukenbo Ohana

Offline Patrick Campbell

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Re: Long Range or Close Quarters?
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2012, 04:18:30 PM »
Both ranges are training imperatives. Close quarter combat is the norm in assaults and street fights I believe. How do you respond to an attack in the hallway, foyer, closet, elevator, car, stairwell, seated in a chair, laying in your bed, etc.... If the assialant / agressor picks the time and the place of the attack then we are at a severe disadvantage.They will want to have us in a position where we are certain to comply to their demands or be taken totally by suprise and at the mercy of their will. Regardless of the range invoved awareness that there is a potential problem or actual threat in the first place is crucial to survival. AWARENESS = SURVIVAL. For those instances where the attack is on top off you - what do you do then whenever there is no time for thought. Essentially training must foster the operator who's reflexes and reactions are one and the same. Just a few points. Much can be written about this topic.

Patrick
« Last Edit: August 02, 2012, 04:23:52 PM by Patrick Campbell »
Patrick "Kaponookalani" Campbell, Ph.D.
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Offline Patrick Campbell

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Re: Long Range or Close Quarters?
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2012, 04:21:57 PM »
Forgot to add also the likliehood of multiple assailants and weapons. Added together along with an assailant who doesn't want to get caught - sums up to a pretty crappy position to be in but one that must be prepared for in training.
Patrick "Kaponookalani" Campbell, Ph.D.
KAJUKENBO - Professor Kai Li - ETS / HKA
Kenpo - SGM Rick Alemany 
DZR Jujitsu - ETS / AJI
BJJ - ETS / USFBJJ / Master Joe Moreira
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Offline Greg Hoyt

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Re: Long Range or Close Quarters?
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2012, 05:48:00 PM »
Yup, I agree with Sigung Pat.  Awareness equals survival.  It has been my experience that the fight begins at long range, and the attack begins in close...there is a difference.  A fight usually begins one on one, but can definately evolve into multiple attackers.  When I have had the opportunity to face my antagonist (not an attacker at this point), I have been able to maintain my "bubble" and use long range weapons until I could close and finish.   I've been "jumped" a few times, and those times the combat began and remained in close quarters until I could finish and/or escape. 
What do I prefer?  I prefer not to fight at all.  That's why I train.  That's why we all train. 
Greg
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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Long Range or Close Quarters?
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2012, 07:35:38 PM »
Long range while figuring the person out, unless the are very big and skilled and need to be battered a bit before entry...close when it becomes go time...it depends on the skill set of the fighters on both sides...I think few are skilled in the trapping range...so if you are there is a clear advance

The Four Ranges of fighting (Kicking>boxing>trapping>grappling)
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Offline Dean Goldade

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Re: Long Range or Close Quarters?
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2012, 08:48:05 AM »
Study all, but be attached to none!

Long range while figuring the person out, unless the are very big and skilled and need to be battered a bit before entry...close when it becomes go time...it depends on the skill set of the fighters on both sides...I think few are skilled in the trapping range...so if you are there is a clear advance

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Offline Ron Baker

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Re: Long Range or Close Quarters?
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2012, 09:14:06 AM »
Lots of really good points. 

In all of our classes, boxing/kickboxing is mandatory for timing, distance, range assessment.  The "tricks" that are learned and taught over the years in the dojo might not transfer in a street/night club/parking lot/workplace situation.  Sometimes you have to "set up" your trick, especially with a skilled attacker(s).

Close quarter combat is where our jujitsu and vital target strikes are crucial.  Groin shots and throat strikes, etc., are good stunners, but we always assume that an attacker's adrenaline will allow him to overcome a vital-area strike.  So we make use of our jujitsu by working in throws/takedowns.  Follow up with a form of limb destruction/control.

We train our grappling/GJJ because sometimes a situation might go to the ground.  But we don't necessarily "roll", we emphasize escapes that transition us back to our feet; but if a choke is there we will take it.  Always being mindful that the attacker has a friend or a weapon.

I'm a big proponent of cross-training, so if there is a skill that we're limited in, we train in it.  Old dogs can still learn new tricks.   
Sigung (Shihan) Ron Baker
Kajukenbo 5280 MMA Foundation
Under GM Jason Groff
Ordonez Kajukenbo Ohana

Offline Greg Hoyt

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Re: Long Range or Close Quarters?
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2012, 10:25:20 AM »
I agree, Sifu Ron. 
Professor Bono, I haven't spent alot of time figuring out my attacker's fighting style.  I know you don't mean to study someone before engaging, but just a snap assessment.  I can't remember ever doing that, though.  Maybe I should have a few times  :) .  Over the years I've developed a handful of entries for the fight.  Simple ones I train over and over again with all kinds of training partners with varying degrees of experience. 
I brought up this topic last night in class.  Our Judo/Silat instructor wants to be inside (naturally).  All his entries are geared to closing the distance and working from there. 
Good topic, Sifu.  Thanks. 
Greg
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Offline Patrick Campbell

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Re: Long Range or Close Quarters?
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2012, 08:38:57 PM »
The Four Ranges of fighting (Kicking>boxing>trapping>grappling)

...and busting (a cap that is).   ;D

Patrick
Patrick "Kaponookalani" Campbell, Ph.D.
KAJUKENBO - Professor Kai Li - ETS / HKA
Kenpo - SGM Rick Alemany 
DZR Jujitsu - ETS / AJI
BJJ - ETS / USFBJJ / Master Joe Moreira
Combat Sambo - ETS / GCA / GM Alan New 
JKD / Kun Tao - ETS / IMB / G. Savelli
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Offline Wado

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Re: Long Range or Close Quarters?
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2012, 10:46:09 PM »

My long range may be short range to someone else or the converse also true. I try to work more on positioning and mobility rather than work on fighting for different ranges. For instance, I try to keep shoulder to shoulder whether close in or further away as that position can force the enemy to move or else half their body cannot be used to attack me.

Of course this does not mean that range is not a factor. Long ranged power striking requires good technique, an element of surprise, and good timing because it is harder to connect with something in motion that is further away. Shorter ranged fighting requires less perfect timing but any part of the body can be used as a weapon.

One of the things I find about short ranged fighting is that it is very even, it can go either way. Anyone can come out on top. So longer ranged skills can be used to put you on top in the short ranged fighting. For example, if two people are in a clinch, either can come out on top. Maybe you are really good at clinching but then you find the other is better. Could go either way. However, a good knee or punch right as the clinch starts can put you on top, make the difference so that instead of a battle in the clinch, you have the upper hand and immediately control the clinch into knees and take downs instead of a fight for the dominate position.
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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Long Range or Close Quarters?
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2012, 08:19:43 AM »
The judgement on the opponents skills is done with a quick feint (or series of them) to see reacting for me....  Cap busting that would be Long Long range....I thinking the most dangerous range is boxing range since ....as they say a punchers chance comes in to play..

We roll daily because it takes a while to get that skill set of feel on the ground...and that surprise is never fun...I have worked with many that have done what they called anti-grappling and it only seemed to work against unskilled take down fighters...once the take down skill-set is there whether greco, freestyle, shoot etc...there is that chance of being on your back look up at knuckles coming down.....
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Chief Instructor Bono's Jeet Kune Do/Kajukenbo
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Offline Greg Hoyt

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Re: Long Range or Close Quarters?
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2012, 04:20:32 PM »
OK, are we talking about sparring?  Yes, I do a little dancing around, see what I can get away with, see what my training partner has.  Bang a little, pull back. Start again, maybe get a takedown, or get taken down, play on the ground a little with strikes and positioning.  Get back on our feet and begin again.  That's with a TRAINING PARTNER.
I don't get into FIGHTS anymore.  I'm too old, I don't need to prove anything, I'd rather talk my way out and try to back away. 
Now if I'm ATTACKED??  That's a whole different deal.  I don't dance, I don't fake shots to see how my attacker reacts.  I don't care how he reacts.  I don't have time to play around.  Again, I'm too old.  For me, I attack the attacker.  I go in hard with long strikes (if distance allows), get inside, do damage, put 'em on the ground, finish, and watch my six.  If on the ground (top or bottom) I do whatever it takes to get back to my feet....If I can do some damage on the way back to my feet, that's great, I won't pass up the opportunity. But I won't waste any time setting up an arm bar from the mount or the guard.  And, I'd rather punch the attacker in the throat, or rake his eyes, or deliver a  palm strike to the ear than choke him.
That's just me.  With all due respect.
Greg 
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Offline Ron Baker

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Re: Long Range or Close Quarters?
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2012, 08:10:12 PM »
I've taught our guys the difference between a static situation--at the dojo practicing our "tricks"--and a dynamic situation where you have a savvy or skilled fighter.  And even from a static positioning, every trick is pushed to the point of failure. 

Most Kaju tricks are most effective in close range.  And even then, we might only be able to make use of certain "elements" of each technique.  Need to defend against an unskilled attacker?  The chances of using that trick from beginning to end goes up.  Dealing with a street fighter or skilled fighter?  He's not gonna throw a dojo punch or grab lapels.  That's when assessing distance, range, timing comes into play. 

I hear what Sibak Greg is saying about not "sparring" with some guy on the street, and instead getting down to business.  I've also found that the average attacker is going to respect our boxing/kickboxing ability and maintain the distance that we want. 

We run a drill where you're job is to get through as much of Punch Art 1, but before you do, you have to set it up.  What seems to work well as a setup is 1/fsk-to-groin/1 (1 being a jab).  Uke is told to come hard as if he's lookin' to do damage--and be aggressive.  Defender is required to be in a boxer's stance and not a horse stance with hands low.  He throws a jab/fsk to maintain the distance and timing that he needs in order to perform Punch Art 1 as close to "by the book" as possible.   

After we complete Punch Art 1, we assume that the attacker got us to the ground, and got a mount position.  We train some basic escapes (not BJJ but more GJJ assuming that attacker has a weapon or a friend).  Up and out.  Choke 'em if you got 'em, otherwise back to your feet.

But definitely make use of the long range to set up the short range.

Definitely would love to hear and share thoughts and concepts, though. 
Sigung (Shihan) Ron Baker
Kajukenbo 5280 MMA Foundation
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Ordonez Kajukenbo Ohana

Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Long Range or Close Quarters?
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2012, 12:31:32 PM »
Sifu Greg, I'm no spring chicken either, but what I was talking about was against a skilled fighter.  An attack without a little knowledge could lead to bad things sometimes that was what I was talking about....an experienced fighter should be able to know when it's go time and when it's at to go time....GT
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Offline Greg Hoyt

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Re: Long Range or Close Quarters?
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2012, 01:19:09 PM »
I hear ya, Professor.  Love and respect. 
Greg
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