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Grandfathering

Author Topic: Grandfathering  (Read 15784 times)

Offline Ghost Rider

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Re: Grandfathering
« Reply #30 on: January 06, 2012, 09:29:10 AM »
So when things like the Oregon thing happen what do we do?
Just sit back and say oh wow that’s terrible and walk away.
For some it’s easy to walk away, not so much for others.
Most people don’t worry about things until it’s too late and the damage is done.
Kajukenbo west coast is strong so why would we let this guy conduct business in our area?
We should all stand together to shut this guy down and not just wait for someone else to handle it.
Greg Harper
senior instructor, Gumataotao Kajukenbo
Head instructor, Kajupit MMA
Sijo Emperado's personal body guard

Offline envisiontj

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Re: Grandfathering
« Reply #31 on: January 06, 2012, 09:47:55 AM »
GM Harper,

For sure!!  That is why I forwarded this info out to so many people.  I made sure to pass it on to every GM and Professor I had in my email contact list.  This is right in my home area - maybe an hour away from me.  Here in the NW we are working very hard to build a strong Kajukenbo presence, then things like this happen.  I know multiple people are tossing around ideas and taking steps to rectify it.  I, and others, are counting on our seniors to help us maintain the proper integrity in our awesome Art.  I am not of the "status" to step in and take care of it myself or I would.  I am sure that the "powers that be" will handle this in the most appropriate way and get this stopped.  Thank you GM Harper and Prof. Bishop for bringing it public here on the forum.  I am glad to see that.

Trent
Sifu Trent Junker
Realm Of The Tiger Kajukenbo - Portland, OR
Under GM Gerry Scott

Offline onephatboydave

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Re: Grandfathering
« Reply #32 on: January 06, 2012, 10:13:39 AM »
A good example of cross ranking gone wrong is happening now in Oregon.  There's a instructor there who was cross ranked in another state at 5th degree.  He then moved to another state, and a instructor there promoted him to 7th degree.  He has now moved to Oregon, and is advertising "2 year Kajukenbo black belt programs" on Craigs list. 
Now, if this instructor had put in the 5-8 years it usually takes to be a Kajukenbo black belt, and the 18-25 years it usually takes to be a 7th degree, he probably wouldn't be selling 2 year black belt programs. 
The more you have to work to earn something, the more you value it.
 

So shouldn't the ones who promoted this guy be told to clean it up.  It only seems fair that if they made the mess they clean it up.  What is the legal stand point on it if he was given a certificate promoted in kajukenbo can he do it.   

I think you have to hold people accountable the higher ups know who are the people cross ranking people in and some have turned a blind eye SGMS GGMS and GMS should be protectors of our art if we don't police our own this is what will happen.   



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Offline Patrick Campbell

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Re: Grandfathering
« Reply #33 on: January 06, 2012, 07:39:40 PM »
I agree with GM Harper. Confrontation is the best bet. But he needs to be called out.

Pat
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Offline Greg Hoyt

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Re: Grandfathering
« Reply #34 on: January 06, 2012, 08:44:22 PM »
I try not to let that kind of crap get to me.  I need to keep MYSELF as accountable as I can.  I need to keep MY side of the street as clean as I can.  What someone does down the street, or in the next state, or halfway around the world does is NOT my business.  My business is to keep as true to my roots as I can, act with as much integrity and honor as I can put forth on a daily basis.  I'm not the Kajukenbo Police, and I'm not going back to that old behavior of busting people up because I feel they deserve it, or because I feel they disrespected me. 
I don't mean to sound like those who have gotten upset about this Oregon Fraud, or GM Garcia, are out of line.  I'm not in charge of that either.  I just don't have the time or emotional energy for it. 
I'm not perfect, far from it.  But for me, I just need to stay out of the stuff I don't need to be involved in. 
Respectfully Submitted,
Greg Hoyt
Sifu Greg Hoyt
Hoyt's Kajukenbo, Peoria, Arizona
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Offline Danjo

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Re: Grandfathering
« Reply #35 on: January 06, 2012, 09:02:52 PM »
I try not to let that kind of crap get to me.  I need to keep MYSELF as accountable as I can.  I need to keep MY side of the street as clean as I can.  What someone does down the street, or in the next state, or halfway around the world does is NOT my business.  My business is to keep as true to my roots as I can, act with as much integrity and honor as I can put forth on a daily basis.  I'm not the Kajukenbo Police, and I'm not going back to that old behavior of busting people up because I feel they deserve it, or because I feel they disrespected me. 
I don't mean to sound like those who have gotten upset about this Oregon Fraud, or GM Garcia, are out of line.  I'm not in charge of that either.  I just don't have the time or emotional energy for it. 
I'm not perfect, far from it.  But for me, I just need to stay out of the stuff I don't need to be involved in. 
Respectfully Submitted,
Greg Hoyt

Sifu Greg,

I get what you are saying, but I think things do need to be said when they arise. Otherwise apathy sets in and we start heading down that slippery slope toward mediocrity in our art. While there may not be much we can do legally, we can still speak up and call things what they are so that others can hear the truth. Otherwise, we are consenting by our silence to these things and outsiders might get the idea that there's nothing wrong with stuff like this when they see it.
"Rank Without Honor is Nothing."
Dan Weston
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FMAA
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Offline Jason Goldsmith

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Re: Grandfathering
« Reply #36 on: January 07, 2012, 09:32:51 AM »
Also, to keep the street analogy going, one could say that another's person's messy street can effect you.  It can lower your property value, which directly adversely effects your life.  Just like if Kajukenbo gets diluted with cross-ranking, then as Danjo pointed out, the art as whole looses reputation and value..
Sifu Jason Goldsmith
5th Degree, Wun Hop Kuen Do Kung Fu
Under GM Al Dacascos
Instructor--WHKD
Durham NC and Philadelphia PA
www.tkfmma.com

Offline Claudio

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Re: Grandfathering
« Reply #37 on: January 07, 2012, 03:03:56 PM »
I understand some people are just not confrontational.  I get that.  But confronting someone who is in the wrong does not have to lead to something physical.  This needs to be handled  in a public manner, maybe separating this individual completely  from the Kaju family and let it be known to all.  I'm not 100% sure how to address it but it needs to be addressed because it is all of our back yards.

To be honest i think a physical confrontation is the highest form of communication, because with out a word being spoken the 2 people involved know exactly how the other feels about them and where they stand when it's over.  With that said, diplomacy keeps you out of jail or worse.  The pen is mightier than the sword.

But I'm just saying ;D
Prof. Claude "Claudio" Lawson III
Ronin Kombat Systems / American Kajukembo Assoc

Kajukembo/Kajukenbo(GM Davis)/ Brazilian Jiujitsu/Kick Boxing/ Practical Weapons/ JKD

Offline Greg Hoyt

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Re: Grandfathering
« Reply #38 on: January 07, 2012, 07:27:34 PM »
I don't know the best way to handle it.  I'm not much into talking, and I don't threaten people. 
No, it's not right to have rank handed out.
No, it's not right to claim to have skill/knowledge and weaken our art.
It's not right.  So, what would I do?  I would go over there and bust this person up, close him down, and go to jail.  I've never been very diplomatic, and diplomacy hasn't worked very well for me in the past. 
If someone came over to our school and told me to shut down and/or threatened me....well, you know.
A good friend of mine once told me that I can have Justice or I can have Peace.  I can't have both.  I can be Right or I can be Happy, I can't be both.
So, I don't know what the correct answer is.  I "feel" that the correct answer FOR ME is to stay out of it.
I fought, killed, and watched friends die in action so that everyone in America can express their own thoughts and feelings.  Please continue to do so.  I totally respect that.  I'm just not going to part of the deal when it comes to, "we should do something about this".
That's how I feel.       
Sifu Greg Hoyt
Hoyt's Kajukenbo, Peoria, Arizona
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Offline sifutimg

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Re: Grandfathering
« Reply #39 on: January 07, 2012, 08:03:30 PM »
I understand the views of whom have posted for sure.  People of similar mindset and values got together and here we are in the America.  5 guys got together in Hawaii and we have Kajukenbo.  Why did our founders come to America and why did our Kajukenbo founders create Kajukenbo?  There were reasons why people came to this country and there are people who stand up for that (by the way thank you Sifu Greg and all of our Ohana who have fought for our country).  There was a reason Kajukenbo was created and again people stand up for that.  That is what most folks are saying here.  As Sifu Jason pointed out a messy street in your neighborhood can devalue everyone's property.  I for one do not want Kajukenbo to become devalued in the eyes of anyone.  As GM Harper pointed out we have to be careful that no damage is done.  Kajukenbo means something to all of us, we poured our blood, sweat, and tears into something we are all passionate about and believe in.  The vast majority can save their asp on the street, compete at the highest level in the cage or ring, and do very well in tournament competition, not to mention the many of our Kajukenbo Ohano in law enforcement and the military who have used Kajukenbo to save their own lives.  I think what all of us have accomplished has exceeded our founders and Sijo's original vision.  That means something to me.  I for one do not want the Kajukenbo reputation, methodology, or process to be compromised in any way shape or form as we do have something very special.  A two year Kajukenbo black belt program just isn't realistic and think whether anyone wants to get involved or not would agree with that much. 

As far as the crossing ranking piece of this goes even though there is no official policy in place I feel there is an unsaid policy (maybe I am wrong), that policy being if someone presents themselves to another instructor asking to come under them and is a black belt, that instructor should contact that person?s original instructor and discuss the situation plain and simple.  That is how I have done it.  This did not happen in this gentleman?s case.  The GM who promoted this gentleman up to 5th degree was just as surprised hearing about his promotion to 7th and without his permission as anyone else.  Now we don?t own anyone however out of sheer respect a person should make their intentions known if they are going to accept a rank from anyone especially within the same system as is in this case.  Furthermore The GM has written and sent a letter to the promoting instructor with contact information asking to discuss the matter and was ignored.  Someone in Texas physically handed the contact information of the GM to the promoting instructor and still was ignored. 

There are steps being taken to address this issue as best we can.  Folks are calling and visiting him to ask about the program and help him see that the general consensus among the legitimate Ranking & Respected Kajukenbo community that this is not something supported. 
Well there you go,
Tim
Professor Tim Gagnier
Student of Great Grandmaster Charles Gaylord & Grandmaster Sid Lopez
Chief Instructor Pacific Wind Kajukenbo
Student Forever
Yamhill, Oregon

Offline Sleddog

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Re: Grandfathering
« Reply #40 on: January 08, 2012, 07:34:56 AM »
This is a watershed moment. One that will stay with us and possibly alter our future. We finally have a concrete example of how our lesse faire attitudes affect us when it comes to our relationships with this art.

It seems that no matter what we say, feel, think, or do, we always have to da kine foot around a couple of well known, but taboo subjects. When talking about the development of this art we always have to acknowledge (but not mention) "the elephant in the room".

Well I will start.

Kajukenbo was not created in some monastery half a world away, but in an "economically disadvantaged section of Honolulu" 60 some odd years ago.
The founders were not "Masters" but young men in their prime with a good idea.
Not all the relationships amongst the early seniors were pleasant and cordial, fact is some were (and are) down right confrontational.
Sijo was no angel, and not all of his decisions were defensible.
Some early seniors have said that Sijo was an opportunist and not their instructor at all.
Some of our early pioneers didn't actually get a black belt before they started teaching. Some of the wrong people have been promoted to the highest levels in this art, criminals even.
Some people with no business doing so (no rank in Kajukenbo) have promoted people in this art and issued certificates supporting these promotions.
Some (more or less) respected seniors have been going around promoting people who are not their students.
Occasionally, people have paid for rank that they did not deserve.
Sijo told people things that were not necessarily true.
Some people have gone under other instructors JUST TO GET PROMOTED, then leave.
Some people don't train for 20 years (or even longer) and expect to be able to come back and pick up where they left off, as if they never left, especially with rank.

There are more things, but that covers a lot of them. Ya, I'm shocked too.

The one, present, overwhelming, reality is that we for the most part do not suck. This status may not continue into the future. We will decide it by our actions now and in the coming months and years.

A little "Golden Rule" time in Kajukenbo. 



Philip Gelinas
Training MA (since 1967)
Kajukenbo, Emperado & Chuan Fa Methods, (Since 1971)
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Offline Danjo

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Re: Grandfathering
« Reply #41 on: January 08, 2012, 11:25:53 AM »
Hard to argue with any of that.

There is a guy named Gavin Debecker who is a security specialist. He wrote a book called "The Gift of Fear" a few years back. One of the things he says is that women get raped because they are afraid of being "rude" when a man invades her personal space or wishes. Because she is afraid of being rude to a stranger, she let's the rapist get too close until it's too late. I think the same thing happens here. People are afraid of being "rude"or "unpleasant" and so we let things slide without comment.

Personally, I think we ought to have a publicly published list of those in Kajukenbo that are doing BS things like video training, cross ranking those with no knowledge and gimmicky promotional sales scams. Let everyone know who and where they are and that this stuff isn't approved of by the larger Ohana. If we're too afraid of being rude, then we allow it to happen and consent to it by our silence.
"Rank Without Honor is Nothing."
Dan Weston
3rd Degree Black Belt under Prof. Bishop
FMAA
Don't tell me how much you honor Sijo, if you don't respect his wishes.

Offline c.chambers

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Re: Grandfathering
« Reply #42 on: January 08, 2012, 11:36:39 AM »
Cross ranking????

I had someone ask for this when I was stationed in over seas, I had 3 Blackbelts from different styles take class.  I let them wear the gi and belt they achieved in whatever system they were from and they worked out with the senior students and myself to learn the curriculum. The agreement was after 1 year, once you were ready to test, for whatever belt I thought you were ready for you had to take off the black belt and wear the one you had earned in Kaju. None of them stayed long enough to learn the entire curriculum. 

No one should be grandfathered a rank in another system which they haven't trained in, you have to learn Kaju to be Kaju.
Agree totally!
Sigung Curtis Chambers. 6th degree blackbelt , American Kajukembo Asossiation member &  student of Professor James Cox.Head instructor in Texarkana Tx. Started Kajukembo "the Knight method" in 2006.

Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Grandfathering
« Reply #43 on: January 08, 2012, 12:26:28 PM »
Good stuff GM PG
GM John E Bono DC
9th Degree Grand Master Gaylord Method Kajukenbo
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Offline envisiontj

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Re: Grandfathering
« Reply #44 on: January 08, 2012, 12:57:07 PM »
Strength, ferocity, seeing things from a realistic view, standing up for what/who we are - these are some of the things I was brought up in our Art to believe in as being integral to who we are as Kajukenboists.  These are some of the things that make us Kajukenbo.  When we start pu$$y footing around, I think we lose some of our identity.  We will become just like other Arts that have gone the McDojo route.  Do we really want to become that way?  Me, personally, I enjoy being part of an Art that is set apart from the others.  I like knowing that my "family" is strong and focused on quality not quantity.

I think it to be very important that we address any and all issues like this that come up, as they come up.  Once we start letting some things go by, more will come.  Pretty soon, we won't be a family but just a bunch of individuals that are so afraid of offending anyone else that noone is held to any kind of standard.  What will happen to our Art then?

As I come up, I am really hoping our seniors will leave us in a good position.  All of us future leaders of Kajukenbo need to connect, maintain integrity, and keep the "family" strong.

Trent
Sifu Trent Junker
Realm Of The Tiger Kajukenbo - Portland, OR
Under GM Gerry Scott