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Grandfathering

Author Topic: Grandfathering  (Read 15785 times)

Offline onephatboydave

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Re: Grandfathering
« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2012, 02:03:04 PM »
There are many here on the cafe who have studied different arts and have blacked in different styles did every single one start from white belt or did they keep their rank and learn the system before being certified as a blackbelts in that system?

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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Grandfathering
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2012, 02:25:40 PM »
started at white...it would make sense to me to know nothing of an art and have rank....maybe someone would move fats through the ranks since they were skilled...depends on the person and the arts involved
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Offline Jason Goldsmith

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Re: Grandfathering
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2012, 02:39:54 PM »
In all but one case I started at white.  The one exception was my TKD to Tang So Do transition, when I was (as a kid) allowed to keep  my high green belt.

Heck, I had to start over when I transferred between WHKD schools.
Sifu Jason Goldsmith
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Offline Patrick Campbell

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Re: Grandfathering
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2012, 02:43:59 PM »
There are many here on the cafe who have studied different arts and have blacked in different styles did every single one start from white belt or did they keep their rank and learn the system before being certified as a blackbelts in that system?

WADR

I had to learn everything from the start. Every system - every style. In most of them I didn't even train with a belt. Just the way I trained with the instructors I trained with - I've had the priviledge of training with some awesome instructors and people and still have the priviledge to train with my current teachers and brothers.

Pat
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Offline Eugene Sedeno

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Re: Grandfathering
« Reply #19 on: January 02, 2012, 02:49:23 PM »
I always started as a white belt and worked my way up through the ranks. 

I still carry a white belt in my bag.  When I want to start something new or even work out at another style I put it on and train.  Less confusing for the other studends.  Also I wouldn't be able to answer questions about their forms or techniques.

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Offline Ron Baker

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Re: Grandfathering
« Reply #20 on: January 02, 2012, 03:46:19 PM »
Can I clarify something?  For the purpose of this discussion, Cross-ranking and Grandfathering are two different (but related) issues, right?

To cross-rank is to bring in a BB from a completely different style into your style and rank them laterally, without training or testing.  Grandfathering is to automatically recognize the down-line BB students of the person who was cross-ranked in. 

How long has cross-ranking and grandfathering in Kaju been going on? 

Sigung (Shihan) Ron Baker
Kajukenbo 5280 MMA Foundation
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Offline Greg Hoyt

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Re: Grandfathering
« Reply #21 on: January 02, 2012, 06:03:07 PM »
I always started at white belt, or like Sigung Pat, no belt. 
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Offline Danjo

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Re: Grandfathering
« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2012, 07:28:59 PM »
Can I clarify something?  For the purpose of this discussion, Cross-ranking and Grandfathering are two different (but related) issues, right?

To cross-rank is to bring in a BB from a completely different style into your style and rank them laterally, without training or testing.  Grandfathering is to automatically recognize the down-line BB students of the person who was cross-ranked in. 

How long has cross-ranking and grandfathering in Kaju been going on? 



You're right about the disctinction between those two terms. Maybe it would be better to say that they're both BS. Thing is, that there have been unscrupulous instructors in Kajukenbo that have done this from time to time. Can't really do much about it, but this is more about what one OUGHT to do or NOT do, not about what one CAN do or NOT do. One Can cross rank and grandfather, but one shouldn't. Just because it can be done, doesn't make it right.
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Offline cirillo

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Re: Grandfathering
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2012, 07:09:12 PM »

I have black belts in 4 styles.  I started at white every time.  Why would it be any other way?  I wouldn't respect anything else.
Sifu Jeffrey D. Cirillo,  7th Degree Black belt in Wun Hop Kuen Do under GM Al Dacascos and 3rd Degree in FaChuan (Blossom Fist) under Sifu Bill Owens with over 35 years experience in the martial arts.
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Offline onephatboydave

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Re: Grandfathering
« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2012, 07:19:20 PM »
Sifu Jeff

I see you are 6th degree in WHKD and 3rd in is that chuan fa from situ Owens. When you started the other did it take as long to reach your black or were you accelerated due to your skill also did you train with advance students or beginners.   

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Offline daholla77

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Re: Grandfathering
« Reply #25 on: January 05, 2012, 05:55:20 PM »
To expand on Backfist’s post, I’ve read that Woodrow McCandless offered to become Sijo’s white belt student, but Sijo had McCandless remain a black belt while learning the new techniques.  I don’t disagree with any of the other points raised, but this seems to me to be an example of a precedence being set.  Perhaps it depends on the student and the similarity of their previous martial art.  I’m a newbie, so please don’t take offense! (I’m just eager to learn).

It was Sijo's system.  He had the right to do whatever he wanted in the system. We (his generations of black belts) do not have the same authority.


I am a Newbie  been doing for two years now I totally agree it was Sijo's system. The founders have the authority to except who they want to except as black belts. But i also feel that nobody after that should be grandfathered in. Since they are starting a new system they need to start at the bottom and work their way up. IT will humble them. Plus it will get rid of their assumptions that they may have about our art. IT is kind of like if a person moved to a new school they can not expect to start because they played football at the other school. He has to know the system. My 2 cent from a humble student with the yearning to learn.
Derrick A. Holland
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Offline cirillo

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Re: Grandfathering
« Reply #26 on: January 05, 2012, 07:45:12 PM »

I have never been accelerated due to experience or skill.  I really have no idea how someone would/could do that.

By the way, the four black belts are in Shotokan, TKD, Hopkido and Kajukenbo-WHKD.  Discussing it any other way is probably not a good idea (you probably don't understand why, but others here certainly do).  I won't say any more on that.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 07:53:22 PM by cirillo »
Sifu Jeffrey D. Cirillo,  7th Degree Black belt in Wun Hop Kuen Do under GM Al Dacascos and 3rd Degree in FaChuan (Blossom Fist) under Sifu Bill Owens with over 35 years experience in the martial arts.
College Station, TX

Offline John Bishop

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Re: Grandfathering
« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2012, 10:39:16 PM »
A good example of cross ranking gone wrong is happening now in Oregon.  There's a instructor there who was cross ranked in another state at 5th degree.  He then moved to another state, and a instructor there promoted him to 7th degree.  He has now moved to Oregon, and is advertising "2 year Kajukenbo black belt programs" on Craigs list. 
Now, if this instructor had put in the 5-8 years it usually takes to be a Kajukenbo black belt, and the 18-25 years it usually takes to be a 7th degree, he probably wouldn't be selling 2 year black belt programs. 
The more you have to work to earn something, the more you value it.
 
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Offline Rick Kingi

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Re: Grandfathering
« Reply #28 on: January 05, 2012, 11:13:41 PM »
   Sijo has grandfather a lot of people into Kajukenbo either becasue he liked them or they were good Kenpo teachers( remember Sijo was a Kenpo man that like the take downs and strikes) and that is something we have to except becasue he is Sijo but that black belts students should not be grandfather into Kajukenbo, there are a couple of groups that there teachers have been grandfather into Kajukenbo and I told them they are not Kajukenbo themself because they don't know the forms punch,grab,knife or stick arts so at this time I'm teaching them my part of kajukenbo from my instructor and told them it will take three to four years before they can be on the tree and I'm talking about guys that have been into martial arts for over 25 years.

   Over the last 35 years I have had black belts from another system wanting to learn Kajukenbo and these guys were good black belts so I let them wear there black belt at our school and if they wanted to compete in a tournament they had to do it as a black belt and when we lined up to start a class no matter there rank they would have to line up at the end of my black belts even though they were higher ranks in there system and when the class started they would get in line with the lower belts to start from the very begging as a white belt some made it in 3 years other longer but they went through every thing my lower belts went through, I had a guy come to a KSDI event one year and he was a black belt in TKD and I made him wear is black belt and he got the poop beat out of him it just made him want to learn more Kajukenbo and he is still with me 30 years later. Each instructor can do what ever he wants to do at his school but if he is real Kajukenbo from the heart he shouldn't promote them with out them learning what he teaches is other black belts.

Offline Ron Baker

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Re: Grandfathering
« Reply #29 on: January 06, 2012, 08:41:41 AM »
A good example of cross ranking gone wrong is happening now in Oregon.  There's a instructor there who was cross ranked in another state at 5th degree.  He then moved to another state, and a instructor there promoted him to 7th degree.  He has now moved to Oregon, and is advertising "2 year Kajukenbo black belt programs" on Craigs list. 
Now, if this instructor had put in the 5-8 years it usually takes to be a Kajukenbo black belt, and the 18-25 years it usually takes to be a 7th degree, he probably wouldn't be selling 2 year black belt programs. 
The more you have to work to earn something, the more you value it.
 

That certainly is a prime example of McDojo-ism.  Probably some "McDojo's" run by a few people of "pure" Kaju lineage, too. 

But GM Kingi makes a relevant point ... many of the people that Sijo adopted into Kajukenbo brought something good to the art.  And even though that might be technically "cross-ranking", it doesn't necessarily mean that those people didn't learn the art and become productive.  Sure, it's probably true that some didn't learn the art and teach it to their students.  But it's probably a good bet that many did.   Point being, that Sijo may have seen a benefit to cross-ranking once upon a time. 

I'm not arguing in favor of anything.  But I think that it's fair to draw a distinction between the "cross-ranking" that Sijo felt was beneficial to the art, and the "cross-ranking" that some believe is absolutely wrong, immoral, BS, etc. 

Sigung (Shihan) Ron Baker
Kajukenbo 5280 MMA Foundation
Under GM Jason Groff
Ordonez Kajukenbo Ohana