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Grandfathering

Author Topic: Grandfathering  (Read 15786 times)

Offline onephatboydave

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Grandfathering
« on: January 01, 2012, 02:32:11 PM »
Question on how one becomes grandfathered in to kajukenbo.  Lets say one is brought in to kajukenbo from a different art but simular at a high rank and already has blackbelts. when he is brought into kajukenbo are his blackbelts just grandfathered in to?

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Tony Ramos Kajukenbo
Under Grand Master David V. Amiccuci
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Offline Jason Goldsmith

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Re: Grandfathering
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2012, 03:57:59 PM »
Honestly, I personally don't think it should be done at all.  If a new school wants to join the style, I think the head instructors and other black belts should learn the material, go through at least a couple of tests, and then be authorized to propagate the art to their students. 

Those black belts of the other school shouldn't gain advanced rank in Kaju, they simply should have an accelerated track to learn the materials and then pass it on.  If they are  6th degree in one art, they can deal with being a colored belt and eventually a 1st degree in Kaju for a while.
Sifu Jason Goldsmith
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Under GM Al Dacascos
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Durham NC and Philadelphia PA
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Offline Sleddog

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Re: Grandfathering
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2012, 06:23:23 PM »
You cannot know how much I agree with you. We have often said that we have a unique art and a tough training method. To not acknowledge that when propagating this art, even horizontally, is a disservice to those who have trained in it, and passed those exams, and waited all those years, because we told them that this was part of our tradition.

One of my MA instructors has referred to the arts that he practices like subjects studied in university. More than one subject can be learned at a time, but studying English Lit does not mean fluency in German, nor does playing intercollegiate basketball automatically assure a place on the soccer team.

What ever system we are is not the same system as what they are. Whatever it is about us that makes them want to be graded in this system should motivate them to do the same work we all had to do to get the grade. I would expect no less if I wanted to learn something else.

It is time to draw some lines in the sand and say enough.

Philip Gelinas
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Kajukenbo, Emperado & Chuan Fa Methods, (Since 1971)
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Offline Ron Baker

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Re: Grandfathering
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2012, 08:16:49 PM »
Question on how one becomes grandfathered in to kajukenbo.  Lets say one is brought in to kajukenbo from a different art but simular at a high rank and already has blackbelts. when he is brought into kajukenbo are his blackbelts just grandfathered in to?

WADR

Not being in a position to judge, sometimes I look at things like this from a law and justice perspective.

Is there written law or decree that outlaws (or regulates) grandfathering or cross-ranking?  Some organizations may have bylaws regarding it.  But are there uniform bylaws across all organizations regarding the issue?  

If there are no written laws, then is there historical precedent for cross-ranking (when did it begin; why was it done; was it done under authority; was it an accepted practice; did it occur in the past and does it continue through the present)?

Respectfully ...

[edit:  I'm not necessarily arguing in favor of the practice.]

« Last Edit: January 01, 2012, 09:35:00 PM by backfist »
Sigung (Shihan) Ron Baker
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Offline Jason Goldsmith

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Re: Grandfathering
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2012, 08:59:38 PM »

Is there written law or decree that outlaws (or regulates) grandfathering or cross-ranking?  Some organizations may have bylaws regarding it.  But are there uniform bylaws across all organizations regarding the issue?  

If there are no written laws, then is there historical precedent for cross-ranking (when did it begin; why was it done; was it done under authority; was it an accepted practice; did it occur in the past and does it continue through the present)?


I don't believe Kajukenbo as a whole has written bylaws of any form that would cover something like this.

Quite frankly though, it is immoral, and should simply be banned on principle.
Sifu Jason Goldsmith
5th Degree, Wun Hop Kuen Do Kung Fu
Under GM Al Dacascos
Instructor--WHKD
Durham NC and Philadelphia PA
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Offline Greg Hoyt

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Re: Grandfathering
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2012, 09:19:35 PM »
I will never cross-rank anyone.  All our students need to put in the mat time, pass the tests, bust the sweat, shed the tears and the blood.  There have been other students from non-kajukenbo schools who are Martial Artists.  But that just means that they can grasp and master the material faster.  They still have to be able to perform the techniques with power, accuracy, and speed.  They still have to be able to perform the Pinans without fault.  They still have to fight the required number of attackers in the bull ring.  And most of all they need to be able to pass the written test, which contains Sijo's original Rules and Regulations, as well as the traditions and the Kajukenbo Prayer.  So, the student from a non-Kajukenbo school COULD be promoted faster if they put in their time and effort, their dedication and respect....they could be promoted up through the ranks faster, but they would have to come up through the ranks just like everyone else. 
Sifu Greg Hoyt
Hoyt's Kajukenbo, Peoria, Arizona
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Offline Andre B

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Re: Grandfathering
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2012, 09:36:49 PM »
To expand on Backfist’s post, I’ve read that Woodrow McCandless offered to become Sijo’s white belt student, but Sijo had McCandless remain a black belt while learning the new techniques.  I don’t disagree with any of the other points raised, but this seems to me to be an example of a precedence being set.  Perhaps it depends on the student and the similarity of their previous martial art.  I’m a newbie, so please don’t take offense! (I’m just eager to learn).
Hawaiian Kenpo (Ryusaki lineage)

Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Grandfathering
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2012, 10:25:01 PM »
I don't think there should be a grandfathering....different arts are different arts...typically grandfathering is from the same skill for example, having a professional degree in one state and being grandfathered in with the same degree, not a MD in one state and a dentist in another for example....
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Offline onephatboydave

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Re: Grandfathering
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2012, 11:21:49 PM »
Andre it is true what you say just saw it on you tube in an interview Sijo had with professor bishop

So what is the solution you can say it is immoral or it shouldn't be done but there is precedent that has been established Backfist makes a good point without bylaws or a board that oversees who is being brought in you will not stop it 

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Tony Ramos Kajukenbo
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Offline John Bishop

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Re: Grandfathering
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2012, 11:30:29 PM »
To expand on Backfist’s post, I’ve read that Woodrow McCandless offered to become Sijo’s white belt student, but Sijo had McCandless remain a black belt while learning the new techniques.  I don’t disagree with any of the other points raised, but this seems to me to be an example of a precedence being set.  Perhaps it depends on the student and the similarity of their previous martial art.  I’m a newbie, so please don’t take offense! (I’m just eager to learn).

It was Sijo's system.  He had the right to do whatever he wanted in the system. We (his generations of black belts) do not have the same authority.
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Offline kfarny

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Re: Grandfathering
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2012, 01:19:39 AM »
Devils advocate here.  Sijo may have let him wear his current black belt while attending class. I don't think that means that Sijo acknowledged him as a Kaj black belt. But, perhaps as a sign of respect for his past.
I am not an instructor, mearly a student. But I think that if I had a school, that is how I would go. With the understanding that you start at the beginning and learn all of the information. Just how to deliniate the students current rank while acknowledging his accrued skill with respect. . . . Comments?
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Offline Greg Hoyt

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Re: Grandfathering
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2012, 08:52:19 AM »
I respect whatever anyone else wants to do in their kwoon.  I acknowledge that there HAS been cross ranking in the past, and some instructors may choose to cross rank in the future. 
However, at Hoyt's Kajukenbo we don't and won't cross rank. 
Sifu Greg Hoyt
Hoyt's Kajukenbo, Peoria, Arizona
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Offline Claudio

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Re: Grandfathering
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2012, 12:22:56 PM »
Cross ranking????

I had someone ask for this when I was stationed in over seas, I had 3 Blackbelts from different styles take class.  I let them wear the gi and belt they achieved in whatever system they were from and they worked out with the senior students and myself to learn the curriculum. The agreement was after 1 year, once you were ready to test, for whatever belt I thought you were ready for you had to take off the black belt and wear the one you had earned in Kaju. None of them stayed long enough to learn the entire curriculum. 

No one should be grandfathered a rank in another system which they haven't trained in, you have to learn Kaju to be Kaju.
Prof. Claude "Claudio" Lawson III
Ronin Kombat Systems / American Kajukembo Assoc

Kajukembo/Kajukenbo(GM Davis)/ Brazilian Jiujitsu/Kick Boxing/ Practical Weapons/ JKD

Offline Patrick Campbell

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Re: Grandfathering
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2012, 12:27:30 PM »
Devils advocate here.  Sijo may have let him wear his current black belt while attending class. I don't think that means that Sijo acknowledged him as a Kaj black belt. But, perhaps as a sign of respect for his past.
I am not an instructor, mearly a student. But I think that if I had a school, that is how I would go. With the understanding that you start at the beginning and learn all of the information. Just how to deliniate the students current rank while acknowledging his accrued skill with respect. . . . Comments?

As you say each iinstructor can do as he pleases. However, if the blackbelt from another style has the proper amount of humility and respect he would in fact want to prove him/herself beyond reproach and start by wearing a whitebelt and work his/her way up thru the ranks. This is a great character builder -humility. We are a family that holds certain traditions and norms that should be common across the board. By coming up thru the ranks the "right way" as witnessed by all the school members and other extended ohana the individual can earn his/her rank and never worry about someone claiming and proving he/she was grandfathered into the system and school.

JMHO

Pat
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Offline Jason Goldsmith

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Re: Grandfathering
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2012, 01:40:27 PM »
Cross ranking????

I had someone ask for this when I was stationed in over seas, I had 3 Blackbelts from different styles take class.  I let them wear the gi and belt they achieved in whatever system they were from and they worked out with the senior students and myself to learn the curriculum. The agreement was after 1 year, once you were ready to test, for whatever belt I thought you were ready for you had to take off the black belt and wear the one you had earned in Kaju. None of them stayed long enough to learn the entire curriculum. 

No one should be grandfathered a rank in another system which they haven't trained in, you have to learn Kaju to be Kaju.

This is also how I approach things, and I don't count it as cross-ranking.  They have to test and earn their rank just like anyone else, you are just acknowledging their existing skill.
Sifu Jason Goldsmith
5th Degree, Wun Hop Kuen Do Kung Fu
Under GM Al Dacascos
Instructor--WHKD
Durham NC and Philadelphia PA
www.tkfmma.com