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Is that Kaju in motion?

Author Topic: Is that Kaju in motion?  (Read 12010 times)

Offline kajubones

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Is that Kaju in motion?
« on: December 16, 2011, 10:55:34 PM »
Aloha,

In our information age, it is always great to be able to see Kajukenbo in motion. What I mean is that as a long time student of the art it is one thing to be told what the techniques looks like and another to actually see it in action. Today we have the internet and such things as youtube. Yes I have perused the rich Kajukenbo content on youtube and it has caused me to question certain things. One of the most perplexing things that I have noticed is that there are some practitioners who move very differently from the "norm" of what I see Kajukenbo to be like, at least at my dojo. I have tried to trace this thing and I hope I have found the head of it. It seems that Garcia (sorry I don't know his title) has some schools in Spain and Europe that have a different take on Kajukenbo? At least that is how it seems to me as their techniques seem very much like just concepts of attack and defense. It does seem to make sense though that once the techniques are learned that the concepts would just be used instead because it would be hard to try to match a random street attack to a certain technique like cover 1. My confusion stems from the notion that what I have been learning is the way all practitioners learn this art but Garcia's people seem to do things differently. I was just curious if this was what Kajukenbo will eventually look like for me as well or is this type of defense more indicative of their "method?" It is an interesting take on the art that I love and have been seeing it more and more of late.
Sibak Harold Sy "Hal"
Kajukenbo student for over 20 years
Ramos/Halbuna/Bianchi

Offline Patrick Campbell

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Re: Is that Kaju in motion?
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2011, 11:57:22 PM »
What is your lineage? Learn what your teacher teaches and continue to ask questions and train and as time goes you will see for yourself and know for yourself. Find out about the teachers in your direct lineage and meet others who are connected to them (cousins, older brothers, uncles) so you can learn for yourself and get a diverse take on things within your own lineage. Kajukenbo is a very rich and diverse system that has different branches, methods as well as expressions. I guess in response to your question GM Garcia's is at the moment his expression although some may argue rather prematurely that his is a method. He has alot of instructors under him so in a way it can be argued he has his own method but then there is a respect thing within and from the rest of the ohana (system at large) that may simply not recognize his as a method at all. I guess only time will tell. I am sure others have more to add that is more informative but who won't as GM Garcia is no longer allowed on the cafe due to ........ and his is a rather sore subject at the moment. Just putting it out there I guess. But you asked.

Pat
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Offline Bautista's

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Re: Is that Kaju in motion?
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2011, 12:06:31 AM »
One of the things that was said by Sijo Adriano Emperado was "BE CREATIVE"
Emil Bautista
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JessieEscobedo

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Re: Is that Kaju in motion?
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2011, 01:09:49 AM »
method:
  
Definition: From the internet.

An established, habitual, logical, or prescribed practice or systematic process of achieving certain ends with accuracy and efficiency, usually in an ordered sequence of fixed steps.

We learn from our teachers, in the process they also learn from the students. In this process the teachers might have to adjust some of the techniques or arrange the movements to help the student. During the years teachers/instructors adjust the techniques to fit today's fighting society due to the fact everyone knows martial arts in today's era. This could be consider as a method of teaching in his own way of thought.

As for me, everyone has their own method of teaching to get the point across to the student.  Please don't get it confuse as being a new system.  As you see on the cafe, their are several so call methods, but all of them are KAJUKENBO.  As GM Bautista said, Sijo always said, BE CREATIVE.

http://kajukenbo.com/cafe/index.php?topic=5591.0

« Last Edit: December 17, 2011, 01:17:54 AM by Jessie Escobedo »

Offline Sleddog

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Re: Is that Kaju in motion?
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2011, 04:41:30 AM »
Kajubones,

One of our requirements here, on the cafe, is that we identify ourselves when we write so that we are able to stand behind our words.

So please, identify yourself when you write here so we can know who we are speaking to.

Thank you.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2011, 12:10:13 PM by Sleddog »
Philip Gelinas
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Offline Ron Baker

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Re: Is that Kaju in motion?
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2011, 08:33:30 AM »
Aloha,

In our information age, it is always great to be able to see Kajukenbo in motion. What I mean is that as a long time student of the art it is one thing to be told what the techniques looks like and another to actually see it in action. Today we have the internet and such things as youtube. Yes I have perused the rich Kajukenbo content on youtube and it has caused me to question certain things. One of the most perplexing things that I have noticed is that there are some practitioners who move very differently from the "norm" of what I see Kajukenbo to be like, at least at my dojo.

Interesting perspective.  It's not a bad thing to "question" certain things.  And if you happen to have a teacher or mentor that is open to questioning or challenging, then it can actually be a good thing.  We all train Kajukenbo/Kenpo for pretty much the same purpose:  to defend ourselves and our families.  Sometimes techniques have to be questioned/challenged/tested.

Yes, different practitioners might execute techniques differently, especially among and between different methods, branches, etc.  So depending on the method or branch, you might not see a "norm".  But--and this is just my own opinion--the test of a technique or a set of techniques, is whether they will work as effectively on the unpredictable street as they do in the sterile environment of the dojo (or YouTube).
Sigung (Shihan) Ron Baker
Kajukenbo 5280 MMA Foundation
Under GM Jason Groff
Ordonez Kajukenbo Ohana

Offline Sifu Sin Bin

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Re: Is that Kaju in motion?
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2011, 10:01:35 AM »
Sometimes Kajukenbo does not look like Kajukenbo because it is not. Simple enough? There are many who have the sign on their building and the paper in their hand who have had little or no foundation in the basic techniques that were laid down by the founders. I am not tryimg to start a firestorm here but the truth is the truth.
Professor Rob Peladeau
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Offline Sleddog

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Re: Is that Kaju in motion?
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2011, 12:53:51 PM »
Sometimes Kajukenbo does not look like Kajukenbo because it is not. Simple enough?

True words, Professor, but difficult to accept by many.

Sijo was very generous in his lifetime and brought many into this system who changed their patch, but did not follow the training that supported it. He never even insisted that you do. As a result we have an uneven representation of this art. I don't know if that is good or bad.

As an example, I remember visiting a friendly Kajukenbo school for a seminar a few years ago. My students were actually stopped while doing their techniques and chastised, by a very senior Kajukenbo practitioner, for hitting (each other) too hard?!?! I did not protest, because obviously this person had lost their way in this art and bringing it up would not have changed anything at that moment.

Truth be told, body tempering has always been a big part of this art and was one of the things that made Kajukenbo stand out from the crowd. It makes the techniques make sense. But like physical conditioning it has to be done intelligently. To just beat someone up doesn't make sense nor does it make sense to just be beaten. Like a sword the body needs to be tempered properly. Properly tempered the body can take more abuse and come back for even more.

Otherwise we would be shooting "Chi" across the room to knock people out instead. Doesn't take much more than a youtube search to see how that goes.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2011, 06:28:01 AM by Sleddog »
Philip Gelinas
Training MA (since 1967)
Kajukenbo, Emperado & Chuan Fa Methods, (Since 1971)
KSDI, BOA
Pekiti Tirsia Kali (Under GT Gaje since 1981)
Jun Fan Gung Fu, Kali & Maphilindo Silat (Under Sifu Dan Inosanto Since 1990)
BJJ (Since 1998)

Offline kajubones

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Re: Is that Kaju in motion?
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2011, 04:18:31 PM »
Being from different Lineages I understand the variety in the movements but I can still see the base between them. With the European schools it seems more like they work more concepts instead of actual Kajukenbo techniques. Don't get me wrong I still see some actual techniques once and a while but the rest of it seems more like free form movements. I see some tactical advantages and flow in this type of concept but wonder if techniques will eventually be watered down as I see the same repertoire of movements over and over in the demos and cannot discern much variety found in the actual techniques (maybe just my untrained eye when it comes to their style).

Also, I have seen many posted videos on "advanced Kajukenbo" as being Kosho/Kajukenbo mix. Just trying to understand what that is about? 
Sibak Harold Sy "Hal"
Kajukenbo student for over 20 years
Ramos/Halbuna/Bianchi

Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Is that Kaju in motion?
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2011, 12:33:18 AM »
I have to agree with Prof Rob...I have seen plenty of that....I can't think of a time where I watch a Kaju person I knew who clearly trained in the art not look like Kaju in some way...if you have been around you can see it. 

I have also watched many who look like a different art and when traced back to their roots they go to a different art...and that would be why...


people add their own stuff, but just like a Harley Cruiser is rarely mistaken for a Ninja.....yeh both bikes, but not the same type of bikes....
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Offline kcerda

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Re: Is that Kaju in motion?
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2011, 10:25:26 AM »
Being from different Lineages I understand the variety in the movements but I can still see the base between them. With the European schools it seems more like they work more concepts instead of actual Kajukenbo techniques. Don't get me wrong I still see some actual techniques once and a while but the rest of it seems more like free form movements. I see some tactical advantages and flow in this type of concept but wonder if techniques will eventually be watered down as I see the same repertoire of movements over and over in the demos and cannot discern much variety found in the actual techniques (maybe just my untrained eye when it comes to their style).

Also, I have seen many posted videos on "advanced Kajukenbo" as being Kosho/Kajukenbo mix. Just trying to understand what that is about? 

As far as i know (I have several of the GM Garcia's DVDs in my collection), european kajukenbo works in a technique-based curriculum of punch counters, grab arts, knife and club arts, etc...as in the most of kajukenbo schools worldwide, and their techniques are pretty similar than original method ones, as I've seen in -as example- Forbach's tapes.  So perhaps you are judging from a couple of videos on youtube that didnt show the real deal.

About the "advanced method" or "kosho ryu kajukenbo" is from the GM Jose Ortega and Professor Nataniel Ortega of Puerto Rico, who are good friends of mine too, they call their method that way cuz they have been added a lot of contemporary stuff to the original method their got from GM Peralta, the "kosho" part comes from GM Jaime Basquez lineage, who studied hawaiian kosho kenpo before joined kajukenbo. I know Nataniel also trained with Bruce Juchnik, of the Sei Kosho Shorei Kai, so he also teach some of the soft or "peaceful" approach of Juchnik kenpo. If u take so many time surfing in the internet to watch other's people  videos, you could use a little of that time to research about that people history and career.

Btw..┬┐are u still under GM Bianchi?
Sifu Kristov Cerda
Hawaiian Kenpo Ohana - Chile, Southamerica.
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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Is that Kaju in motion?
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2011, 11:18:01 AM »
In the instance you mention I judged from the dozens and dozens of video posted by him....I figured he posted what he did....
I have watched his students videos and observed identical technique...I never watched anything that looked like GM Forbach's tapes which I have and even when I have seen him or his students in person...that doesn't mean it's not true, but from the info I have and others have told me that is what I observed...
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Offline kcerda

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Re: Is that Kaju in motion?
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2011, 02:12:09 PM »
In the instance you mention I judged from the dozens and dozens of video posted by him....I figured he posted what he did....
I have watched his students videos and observed identical technique...I never watched anything that looked like GM Forbach's tapes which I have and even when I have seen him or his students in person...that doesn't mean it's not true, but from the info I have and others have told me that is what I observed...

Well, I would not be surprized if he has been stingy with his stuff around there, so a big part of the argument depends on the sources of information that each one handle. Dont get me wrong, Im not a fan, neither a friend, just trying to get some objectivity here. There are some of his old videos for (not legal) download in some places over the internet.  He has also a good dvd on weapons techniques, with a heavy influence from FMA, as usual in kajukenbo.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2011, 02:18:17 PM by kcerda »
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Offline kajubones

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Re: Is that Kaju in motion?
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2011, 09:25:59 PM »
Hello Sifu Cerda,

Thanks for the info. It is true that I have seen videos of their style on youtube, I do not base that as research but as far as seeing Kaju in motion it is all I have to look at unless I actually stop by another Kaju school. It is great to hear that their style is also based on actual techniques but what I saw on youtube made me wonder about a concept based kaju and not a technique based one. I think the idea of a concept based kaju is interesting and that is why I wanted to know more about them. I asked whether or not my kaju will look like theirs later on because I am always looking to perfect my art. It is from a curiosity based thought that I am coming from and not a judgmental point of view. Although I am a black belt I do not have any illusions about my knowledge and am always in search of more. I like to think out of the box!

Also, I am still training with Grandmaster Bianchi, do you know him?

Wow, I just saw a self defense video by Garcia from a friend and I see what you mean about his stuff being based on actual techniques. It actually burst by bubble because I was hoping that I found something that will help me travel a path less traveled by. Oh, well...

Hal
« Last Edit: December 21, 2011, 10:42:19 PM by kajubones »
Sibak Harold Sy "Hal"
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Ramos/Halbuna/Bianchi

Offline KBOWARRIOR

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Re: Is that Kaju in motion?
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2011, 10:55:51 PM »
Technique based or concept based. Not sure what you mean by this. You learn techniques and use them to hammer the concept home. Watching someone do a technique only shows you so much. Watch someone doing fast monkey line or bull ring. There is no technique that you are doing there, you will be forced into the concepts ideas. No time to think, react is what has to happen here. You should be able to flow without conscious thought. I remember that was when GM Harper promoted me to my BB. I went thru 10 plus guys in monkey line. He asked me what I did on each person. I couldn't remember, just reacted and blasted thru. Conscious thought was gone.
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