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Depth of Squat

Author Topic: Depth of Squat  (Read 13083 times)

Offline kcerda

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Re: Depth of Squat
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2011, 08:31:21 AM »
One of the most important reasons to practice the deep horse stance is to allow a defender to strike the groin area while maintaining a good base.  It is nearly impossible to strike the groin with power while in a traditional fighting stance....unless you bend over (not good).  When we transition from standing to low base to perform our groundwork we need to have a strong core.  Lower body strength is key here, both for base and to resist the temptation to bend over for our 'groundwork'. 

Good point!
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Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re: Depth of Squat
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2011, 08:56:03 PM »
One of the most important reasons to practice the deep horse stance is to allow a defender to strike the groin area while maintaining a good base.  It is nearly impossible to strike the groin with power while in a traditional fighting stance....unless you bend over (not good).  When we transition from standing to low base to perform our groundwork we need to have a strong core.  Lower body strength is key here, both for base and to resist the temptation to bend over for our 'groundwork'. 

Agreed.  This is why I ask the question : does spending a lot of time in a squat position produce a good squat?  Much leg strength is required to decelerate the body to a squat position to strike a groin as well as to leave the stance.  I'm certainly not picking on the training methods a particular style, but martial arts practice as a whole.   Some of the ridiculousness I see is the insistence that a head not bob while changing positions in a deep squat in a kata when it is precisely the bobbing (dropping into a squat and leaving a squat) that needs to be trained.  Perhaps what we are seeing is the evolution of martial arts during peace time in which the purposes of the movements are lost because they are never used for fighting or with other bodies (solo kata).
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Offline cirillo

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Re: Depth of Squat
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2011, 11:03:30 PM »

Part of the reason for no head bob during transitions forward between stances is the linear movement that results.  It is the physics of the movement that dictates the punch would be more direct and have more power by having all force directed in a straight line into the target.  The momentum is greater at the striking point.  If there is curvature in the movement that goes away from the direction of impact, it detracts force from the strike, as well as speed, resulting in more leading centers that can be read during the attack.  This is at least part of the reason that training low transition stances may improve power and the ability to work from a strong foundation during a punch (i.e. the back toe or ball of foot on strikes done in a higher stance).  The deep stance is an extreme example of the same type of movement that can be done in higher stances to eliminate indirect, rather than direct movements in a strike.  Training it low should make it easier to do it high and allows more focus on proper mechanics.  For these reasons, I see benefit to teaching students with little/no experience this type of movement, but ultimately getting away from it for practical situations once the foundational movements and mechanics are beginning to develop well.
Sifu Jeffrey D. Cirillo,  7th Degree Black belt in Wun Hop Kuen Do under GM Al Dacascos and 3rd Degree in FaChuan (Blossom Fist) under Sifu Bill Owens with over 35 years experience in the martial arts.
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Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re: Depth of Squat
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2011, 08:28:45 PM »
" It is the physics of the movement that dictates the punch would be more direct and have more power by having all force directed in a straight line into the target."

That is true when the target is best attacked in a horizontal line.  But that is not the case for many targets.  Without the downward component aided by gravity, the force vector has a lower absolute magnitude.

Many kata movements appear to be entrance movements, but since most kata are not taught with explicit application of every movement, the certainty of the purpose of the movement is lost.   How many of us are able to recite with confidence the original purpose of each Naihanchi kata movement?  I'd like to meet that person despite much knowledge gained from those teaching Naihanchi Bunkai. I think it's just as easy to argue for head-bobbing during kata as it is to argue against it.  Anyway, thanks for your words.  The multi-purpose nature of kata movements is maddening.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2011, 08:50:36 PM by Gints Klimanis »
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Offline cirillo

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Re: Depth of Squat
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2011, 08:14:25 AM »

In general, most of my students have more problem not bobbing when they move than bobbing.  The issue is can they control their movements while moving?  I train people to improve their weaknesses.  Direct movement improves speed and momentum on impact, making it a better movement from point A to point B.  If you go up first, just so you can go down, you are wasting energy and time.  Unnecessary movements certainly make a person easier to read.

I, in fact, have met a person that could break down all of the applications of the forms you mention.  I forget his name, but it was back in the 80's and he had to do a great deal of research (in original countries and original languages).  He had over 10 applications for each movement though.  Whether or not they were actually 'original purpose' is impossible to know without talking to people that are dead.  I can't do that, nor can he.  We are left to figure those out for ourselves.  Older, wiser martial artists would have said, if you don't know, you haven't done it enough.  Were they right or just full of B.S.?  I guess we all have to decide for ourselves.
Sifu Jeffrey D. Cirillo,  7th Degree Black belt in Wun Hop Kuen Do under GM Al Dacascos and 3rd Degree in FaChuan (Blossom Fist) under Sifu Bill Owens with over 35 years experience in the martial arts.
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Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re: Depth of Squat
« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2011, 07:07:13 PM »
If you go up first, just so you can go down, you are wasting energy and time. 

Not sure about this.  The force of motion is increased with a pre-stretch in the opposite direction, be it moving the ball in backwards for baseball pitch, a stutter to move feet sideways or a rise to chop wood with an axe.  Jumping up for a movement will result in the combination of the downward force from gravity to the linear movement.  Even if the strike is perfectly horizontal, an upward bob will often make it easier to generate that movement.  A deep stance is stable and the opposite of mobile.

"He had over 10 applications for each movement though. "

I teach this way, which is probably why I am mad.  It would be therapeutic to know if the original intention of the kata was a single purpose to the movement.  George Dillman teaches a grappling interpretation of Naihanchi kata.  Ian Abernaithy teaches a take down and body lock interpretation.  Most teachers I've seen teach the striking interpretation.  Choki Motobu's son (or grandson) and his head instructor demonstrated their own interpretation at the Gathering of the Eagles event in Las Vegas in 2000.

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to write about this.
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Offline kcerda

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Re: Depth of Squat
« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2011, 07:52:27 PM »

[/quote]The force of motion is increased with a pre-stretch in the opposite direction, be it moving the ball in backwards for baseball pitch, a stutter to move feet sideways or a rise to chop wood with an axe.  Jumping up for a movement will result in the combination of the downward force from gravity to the linear movement.  Even if the strike is perfectly horizontal, an upward bob will often make it easier to generate that movement.  A deep stance is stable and the opposite of mobile.
[/quote]

Totally agree, the same principle works in the recoil or snaping movement (even also a previous slap that one can see in some lineages of kenpo) that follows a hand technique just to prepare the next one, gathering energy.

BTW, Gints, what version of naihanchi do u teach? the original okinawan one or the kenpo/kajukenbo modified?
« Last Edit: December 04, 2011, 08:05:43 PM by moregeometrico »
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Offline cirillo

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Re: Depth of Squat
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2011, 08:53:03 PM »

At least it was a better discussion (certainly more civil) than the one going on in the other section... ;)  Energy spent here helps to keep me from responding elsewhere...
Sifu Jeffrey D. Cirillo,  7th Degree Black belt in Wun Hop Kuen Do under GM Al Dacascos and 3rd Degree in FaChuan (Blossom Fist) under Sifu Bill Owens with over 35 years experience in the martial arts.
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Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re: Depth of Squat
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2011, 02:38:32 PM »
BTW, Gints, what version of naihanchi do u teach? the original okinawan one or the kenpo/kajukenbo modified?

Kristov,

I believe I am practicing the Kajukenbo-modified version.  It is nearly identical to what some systems call Naihanchi Shodan, but it has an additional half added.  The name of the kata is the "Death Dance" as passed to my teacher's teacher. 
"We do not condone the use of a toilet seat as a deadly weapon"
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Offline kcerda

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Re: Depth of Squat
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2011, 04:40:03 PM »
BTW, Gints, what version of naihanchi do u teach? the original okinawan one or the kenpo/kajukenbo modified?

Kristov,

I believe I am practicing the Kajukenbo-modified version.  It is nearly identical to what some systems call Naihanchi Shodan, but it has an additional half added.  The name of the kata is the "Death Dance" as passed to my teacher's teacher. 

"Death Dance" or "Dance of Death" are the kaju nicknames for palama 11 or modified Naihanchi shodan. Ive seen in some of CHA-3 groups, and maybe in some of the videos u posted in vimeo, that there's a non-stationary version, that uses a kind of embunsen (footwork pattern) that I havent seen in okinawan nor in kajukenbo version i know. ┬┐Any clue for that?
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Offline Tony49

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Re: Depth of Squat
« Reply #25 on: January 01, 2012, 11:49:14 PM »
In the style I study, we have both a Stationary Death Dance and a Moving Death Dance.
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Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re: Depth of Squat
« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2012, 04:00:56 PM »
Antonio,  Would you please ask about the origin of the stationary Death Dance?   

As an exercise, I asked my class in the early 2000's to try the dances with replacement footwork as a modification for practicing in smaller, urban rooms.  Most of the Dances need a lot of space, at least a 15'x15' room.  Some need about 20'x20'.  So, it's clear they were developed in a larger training area.  Many of us are stuck practicing in a one-car garage or sometimes, a living room.  So, there is a TV screen to be considered.
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Offline Wado

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Re: Depth of Squat
« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2012, 09:34:02 PM »
If you go up first, just so you can go down, you are wasting energy and time.  

Not sure about this.  The force of motion is increased with a pre-stretch in the opposite direction, be it moving the ball in backwards for baseball pitch, a stutter to move feet sideways or a rise to chop wood with an axe.  Jumping up for a movement will result in the combination of the downward force from gravity to the linear movement.  Even if the strike is perfectly horizontal, an upward bob will often make it easier to generate that movement.  A deep stance is stable and the opposite of mobile.


Very interesting conversation. Not to distract from other topics in this thread, but horizontal and vertical movement are independent of each other unless you have a "slope" to convert the force. At least that is how I understand it to work. A slope is like how a sled converts downward force into forward movement when going down a snow covered hill.

The human body can create a slope with the opposite foot than the one that is stepping. For instance, if I step with the right foot, this transfers force to the left foot, if I allow my left foot to absorb the force than all the force goes into the ground. However, if I instead allow my left foot to act like a spring board, then this is equivalent to creating a slope that transfers the downward force into forward force. This is one of the principles of the "falling step" in boxing. In Kajukenbo, you might recognize the foot work as that used in the Alphabet techniques where you start in left-foot-forward cat stance and then step forward with your right foot to strike.

Anyway, long story short, from what I've been taught, the head can go up or down before and/or after the step, but not during the step. To bring the head down and then up during the step means that too much force is going into the ground instead of using the opposite foot like a spring board (e.g. slope) that instantly converts the downward force of gravity into forward force into the target.

IMHO.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2012, 09:36:28 PM by Wado »
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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Depth of Squat
« Reply #28 on: January 19, 2012, 01:40:20 AM »
I have never heard falling step in boxing...step and slide...same thing?...though I have seen many take a step then fall...
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Offline Wado

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Re: Depth of Squat
« Reply #29 on: January 19, 2012, 11:58:55 AM »
I have never heard falling step in boxing...step and slide...same thing?...though I have seen many take a step then fall...

Hello Professor,

It goes by different names. Falling step is the term used by Jack Dempsey. It is described in this article: http://www.combat-journal.com/pages/25577 and in this one: http://punchingtechniques.com/falling-step/

Although Jack Dempsey writes about how to apply the falling step concept with a lead left, years ago I attended a workshop run by a champion point fighter who showed us how to use the concept by moving our lead foot into cat stance and then executing a lunge punch. It was the footwork he said he used to score most of his points.

In any case, use of the falling step with a punch is like hitting with a battering ram and does not require torso rotation for power.

On the other hand, for a cross or reverse punch, I've added a bit of the falling step to the power from torso rotation... I feel this is a powerful punch for me. (Oh and a shameless plug for Professor Burkey for getting me into using proper pivot points... that helped a lot too.)
« Last Edit: January 19, 2012, 12:02:00 PM by Wado »
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