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DIGNITY AND THE MARTIAL ARTS

Author Topic: DIGNITY AND THE MARTIAL ARTS  (Read 5074 times)

Offline RJHJ

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DIGNITY AND THE MARTIAL ARTS
« on: January 20, 2011, 02:03:37 AM »
Bean awhile since i posted here,but this has been on my mind for about a week now.(little history).About a week ago I was helping my mechanic change out an engine in one of my work trucks.Hes a good mechanic and a good freind,we hang out together and call and shoot the bull with each other,and even try to get together and go fishing sometimes, hes about 10 years my senior and im 43,we call him CJ.CJ trained in the martial arts for about 30 years in california,texas and some other places i cant remember,his brother actually owns a TKD dojo here in town.any way martial arts came up in our discusions.He said that martial arts has changed a lot over the years and i asked him what he ment and he said its not as dignified as it used to be with all the influx of the mma and cage fighting goin on.He said that when he was comming up in the martial arts his idols were people like Joe Lewis ,Bruce Lee,Bill Superfoot Wallace,he said that now it seems like that any guy that can throw somebody on the ground and beat someone into a bloody mess is the hero of the day.I asked him if he watched any of the cage fights and he said he has watched them a little and said he really didnt enjoy them as much as he would a good kickboxing match.He said that in a lot of ways martial arts has lost its dignity.So i thaught about it a while and thaught i would post this here to the masses,and the people that i respect.So heres my question to all of you do you think that we as martial artist,have since weve ifluxed the mma into out lives(and im not talking about just kaju)have in some way lost our dignity? It seems that there are a lot of martial art schools turning to this kind of training and mentality of get them down and beat the crap out of them.What do you think?
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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: DIGNITY AND THE MARTIAL ARTS
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2011, 11:21:35 AM »
I don't think true martial artists lost their dignity I think some people never had it in the first place and started to train.  Martial artists to me train for life and train to train...many MMA guys train to make money or to act tough...they do not understand the martial way.  Any Instructor worth their weight should instill the respect of people and the arts into their students.  There are MMA guys that respect the arts and fighting and other humans also....but again it is in my opinion reflective in their training.

I respect an Instructor much more when their students are respectful...that shows the training and skill sets and caring of the Instructor I think....
GM John E Bono DC
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Champions aren't made in the gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them a desire,a dream,a vision

Offline Wado

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Re: DIGNITY AND THE MARTIAL ARTS
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2011, 12:56:03 PM »
You know, there are a few bad apples, but those that actually put in the hard work and train in a formal MMA, Kajukenbo, or other martial arts program tend to be pretty decent people. They may have some ego and let things go to their head a bit too much at times getting caught in the moment, but overall, I would say there is humility.

I would speculate that those that think it is okay to just take someone down and pound them senseless are probably not actively training in a formal martial arts program.

I also think it depends on where someone lives but I think most of the lessons about fighting are learned early on in life. When I was growing up I got in more than a few fights, most of them ended up ending after I landed one good right cross to the jawline. Any good shot would do it, one time I knocked a guy down on his butt with a side kick and that ended the physical fight, but he kept going verbally for another minute or so then it was over. I didn't always come out on top, in fact one time I was knocked down and a guy got on top of me and hit me in the head six or seven times, then it was over. I think people just learned early on that a lot of fighting was not about winning or losing, it was about saving face. Saving face meant that you earned some mutual respect for each other. The guy on top got bragging rights, the other guy earned some respect just for standing up for himself and could joke later on about how he got his asp kicked. Both came out of it saving face.

Most of the guys I fought with ended up being my friend. My best friend growing up we first met by fighting.

The saving face like the old days is still out there, but it is being overshadowed by gang mentality and something called "nerd rage". For example, my oldest, my step son, had trained a few years with me in Aikido when he was 8-10 years old. In his teens he got into drugs and some of the gang scene, hung out with the wrong people. But he stayed in school and sports.

He got kicked out of school for fighting. The last time he and another got in a fight on the edge of school property. He punched the other guy a few times and the guy went down dazed. Step son told me he was saying, "you had enough" and that was going to be it. The other guy just got angry and just came up swinging blindly. Well now comes the bad stuff. My step son hits the guy and takes him down, gets on top and starts wailing on the guy, probably 4 or 5 punches to the head. Security is coming so my step son takes off. He ends up getting kicked out of school. He was varsity first string tight end on his high school football team, but he is kicked off the team too. He was really hoping for a football scholarship.

My step son ended up finishing up high school and now is working his way through a Community College with no football program. He is back to training at our school. He won his first amatuer Muay Thai fight a few months ago. He is a lot more mature now than when he was getting into trouble. However, he still can get caught up in the moment. After his win, he started to talk some crap, but Professor Mateo got right on him and told him he had to be humble. Professor doesn't put up with that crap.

What is it with many these days that they think just because they have rage, they turn into the incredible hulk? Rather than just ending it with both saving face. Gangs and others rationalize it as saving face, but it isn't at all about saving face, it is really revenge... setting an example. When gangs come to "save face" they are out to set an example, it is about territory, not mutual respect. Territory means power and ultimately means money. Now you got people thinking the way to "save face" is to go all raging like the hulk or come back later with a gun or in numbers. It really becomes revenge no matter how it is rationalized as anything else, IMHO.

If they are interested in MMA, I say, get them training at a good MMA school. Let the hard training change them. Get the people they hang out with to be the "right crowd".

« Last Edit: January 20, 2011, 09:21:25 PM by Wado »
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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: DIGNITY AND THE MARTIAL ARTS
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2011, 01:57:06 PM »
Good one Wado....we didn't call it saving face...but it was the time when I was a kid...Prof Mateo did a good thing...I'm sure his authority held weight....I think as you get older and more experienced you tend to change the reasons you would be provoked to fight...when you are young and full of testosterone...it could take a wrong look, then you realize you really need to protect yours...wife, kids, family and usually protecting yourself can be just telling the person they really don't want to fight.....
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Full Instructor-Hartsell's Jeet Kune Do Grappling Assoc
Chief Instructor Bono's Jeet Kune Do/Kajukenbo
Champions aren't made in the gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them a desire,a dream,a vision

Offline Greg Hoyt

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Re: DIGNITY AND THE MARTIAL ARTS
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2011, 05:02:37 PM »
Dignity....Respect....Honor....Duty....it all begins at home.  For me it began long before I stepped on the mat the first time.  My parents were very strict about manners and respect.  My Dad was retired WWII Air Force light bird, my Mom was raised on Maui by a loving, old school ohana.  So my sisters, brother, and I had it pounded (sometimes literally) into us from jump street. 
I've done my best to pass those lessons on to my son, and step children (minus the corporal punishment). 
I have found that the vast majority of Martial Artists around are cut from the same cloth as the Martial Artists of yesteryear.  Yeah, there are some who haven't learned the hard lessons yet, but those are few and far between.  I've been blessed with good, grounded instructors who have continued to mentor me by instilling those very principles and values my parents felt were super important.  And we're doing our best to follow their example by the way we conduct ourselves in, and out of the kwoon.    There are schools out there that do not follow a tradional path.  And of those schools some don't care about respect or tradition or dignity - just money. 
Last week we had two guys come to check out our classes.  They trained, and loved it.  They mentioned that they were currently training at one of the BJJ schools here in town.  I told them that while they were welcome to come visit whenever, I would'nt agree to take them as students unless they got permission from their BJJ instructor.  I feel that that's the proper way. 
Anyway, I don't feel we have lost any dignity. 
Greg   
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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: DIGNITY AND THE MARTIAL ARTS
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2011, 05:28:09 PM »
If a student is from a Kajukenbo school I want the teachers permission if they are leaving that school, but if they are from a different art they are more then allowed to cross train like any other student. 
  The call to other Kaju Instructors is a courtesy because they are part of the brotherhood of Kaju
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Champions aren't made in the gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them a desire,a dream,a vision

Offline c.chambers

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Re: DIGNITY AND THE MARTIAL ARTS
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2011, 11:34:19 PM »
Rick, How have you been? Hope everything is well with you. I also wanted to ask if you yourself have gained dignity and respect? I know that you have and I also know that you know where you have come from. All I want to say, is to reflect in yourself. Sometimes in doing so, you find the answers that you are looking at within yourself. You should not be a mirror image of your instructor and in saying this you can still look back and reflect. Reflect on what you have learned. You are missed!
Sigung Curtis Chambers. 6th degree blackbelt , American Kajukembo Asossiation member &  student of Professor James Cox.Head instructor in Texarkana Tx. Started Kajukembo "the Knight method" in 2006.

Offline Greg Hoyt

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Re: DIGNITY AND THE MARTIAL ARTS
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2011, 07:54:14 AM »
Professor Bono,  I respect your position regarding cross training. 
Greg
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Offline Danjo

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Re: DIGNITY AND THE MARTIAL ARTS
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2011, 08:22:14 PM »
Good sportsmanship in general seems to be dead. In nearly every sport there seems to be constant trash talk about the other players, teams or fighters and a lot of bragging about oneself. Few remember how shocking it was when Muhamed Ali would trash talk his opponents and brag on himself saying "I am the greatest!" It was a gimmick with him, but now it is almost expected of our athletes. We expect them to spike the ball in the endzone and to a victory dance. We expect them to run down their opponent's ability and tell us how they're gonna knockout and punish or humiliate the other guy. Gone are the humble statements about oneself and the acknowledged respect for the opposition before, and after a contest. Athletes are now a bunch of braggarts and slaggers. I think that this mentality is also in the martial arts world, at least in the competitive end of it.
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Re: DIGNITY AND THE MARTIAL ARTS
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2011, 10:40:23 PM »
Danjo,

I agree!!!

Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: DIGNITY AND THE MARTIAL ARTS
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2011, 02:59:43 PM »
I agree Dan...Ali used it to pump things up...I met him in the day, at a boxing event for my boxing team...maybe 1981...he was great, humble, nice to everyone...he got in the ring in his suit in his socks and moved around with one of our light weights...fast as ever....took pics with who ever wanted them....just a humble man that loved the sport...he just saw a poster for the fights and came...

True sportsmanship needs to come back...I think if all the Instructors here made a point to talk to their students and in turn they pass that on ...maybe we will have something....
GM John E Bono DC
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Full Instructor-Hartsell's Jeet Kune Do Grappling Assoc
Chief Instructor Bono's Jeet Kune Do/Kajukenbo
Champions aren't made in the gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them a desire,a dream,a vision

Offline Wado

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Re: DIGNITY AND THE MARTIAL ARTS
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2011, 08:28:00 PM »
I remember how shocked I was the first time I heard Ali trash talk and the same with professional wrestlers. Now we got a whole generation that grew up on trash talking athletes. I catch my son trash talking on video games, I stop it right then.

One of the most humble guys I ever met was a former No Holds Barred champion. The guy was huge and had that look that no one in their right mind would want to mess with. He wanted to train in kajukenbo because his wife, who was in the FBI, had trained in kenpo and he liked what she had showed him.

I'm not surprised at all that Ali, being the great champion and all, is at heart a humble, respectful and professional person.

It really is up to each generation to keep on the next generation to pass on values, dignity, respect. Especially in this generation where people are trash talking on the internet and video games simply because they are protected behind a veil of anonymity.

Instead of face-to-face, we only see people interact over video, television, and the internet, all with some anonymity. Don't get me wrong, anonymity is good for protecting the under aged, but it should not be promoting trash talk.

In the animal kingdom, the presence of an older bull actually keeps the younger bulls in line. For example this story I like about elephants:

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/How-Male-Elephants-Bond.html?c=y&page=1

« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 08:30:40 PM by Wado »
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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: DIGNITY AND THE MARTIAL ARTS
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2011, 09:27:56 PM »
Very good points....the internet as great as it is has made things sometimes mush less personal....keyboard fighters are more common then real fighters....we need to take that back....
GM John E Bono DC
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Full Instructor-Hartsell's Jeet Kune Do Grappling Assoc
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Champions aren't made in the gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them a desire,a dream,a vision

Offline dom28

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Re: DIGNITY AND THE MARTIAL ARTS
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2011, 05:51:01 AM »
this is a vary good topic,have martial artists lost dignity? in a word i think no! i know most of the MMA guys in norwich and most of them are great,i dont train in MMA but my brother dose.the club he trains at, the head coach is always kind & friendly there pro is the first to give you tips on how to help your game.our  dad was vary against MMA at first being a trad aikido teacher for now over 30 years,but what happend on the first class my brother did changed his mind.they were playing music and grappling they waved on my brother and taped hands to begin [no bow]any way my brother [a former judo champ]is grappling with this guy when the guy jumps up and shouts at my brother that he keeps shoving his elbow in his face then he swears  and spits at him now at this point i am just about restraining my self from hitting this guy, but then the coach comes in and tells the guy vary calmly that this is not on and to get out now and to not come back he is baned he then says he is realy sorry to my brother and then to me and my dad,he did not know us but there was not a moment when his now former student had any surport,and it was not just the coach all his students kept telling my brother how sorry they were that that had happend to him.and lets remember that a lot of trad martial artists at the time thort that joe lewis and the like had no respect.a lot of what we see on tv is for show people like  GSP COTURE BJ PEN they are true martial artists at heart lets not type cast them for a few on stage theatrics.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2011, 06:38:34 AM by dom28 »
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Offline RJHJ

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Re: DIGNITY AND THE MARTIAL ARTS
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2011, 07:34:31 AM »
First of all thanks for your replies,second this is not about me this is about MA in general,Now I know the economy is not what it should be but has any body noticed if any parents have NOT put there kids or for that reason((dignity))or themselves into an MA program due to theVioelent aspect of the MMa factor Or has It remained about same or more.dont get me wrong I know that we are all dignified people and do underastand that there is trash talking in the ring, but from an OUTSIDERS veiw a MMA FIGHT could be considered no different than a locol tough man contest where people can go and watch some one get the crap beat out of them,the only differance is that now you can watch it on tv.
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