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what is reasonable about reasonable force?

Author Topic: what is reasonable about reasonable force?  (Read 11348 times)

Offline dom28

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what is reasonable about reasonable force?
« on: January 16, 2011, 05:53:11 AM »
when i am teaching my students a technique they often ask if its not going over the top [as in kenpo you not only hit the guy six times then take him down and then stomp him which i think is the same in kajukenbo]now my normal respones is to say that on the street you only go as far as you need.but how far is as far as you need,as a big guy if i knock down a unarmed guy i would be by law [at least in the UK]be expected to leave him Ok but what if as i step away he gets up and pulls a knife i have broken my ankle in the past and still cant run that well so running is no good now i have to face a knife unarmed with a bad ankle or worse what if he pulls a gun,all of this will not happen if i finish him off as soon as he hits the floor but if it turns out he dose not have a weapon then i have [in law] gone over the top,in training we are told to always think he has a weapon! which is right and i think the  best way train i have been cut for real its not fun so if i can help it i am taking him out.what do you guys think.see you in jail soon  
« Last Edit: January 16, 2011, 10:19:05 AM by dom28 »
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Offline Patrick Campbell

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Re: what is reasonable about reasonable force?
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2011, 09:08:45 AM »
Regardless of a person's knowledge and skill in the fighting arts they are still responsible for their action or inaction in a given violent scenario.

I don't plan on going to jail...period. The bottom line is that if you loose control and don't walk away when you should, thereby becoming yourself a factor in the resulting problem, you can be found liable - if not criminally then civily depending on what happens.

I have never been in a situation where I was unable to use the proper amount of control in a given situation - even in combat where I could have clearly wasted an individual and no one would have second-guessed my split-decision. I thank God for this self-control.

We must not be looking for ways to fight rather ways not to fight. Our minds in the street must not be searching for reasons to fight rather ways to avoid them. If this isn't prudent then we must neutralize the threat. Bottom line - you hurt someone - you're going under the microscope and you better hope that you are proved to have been in the right. Self-defense is getting yourself or others out of immediate danger. If the assialant is down and writhing in pain (cause I am being nice) and I don't leave the area and call 911 and rather stay...where is the control in this? I have defended myself - now it's time to get out of the area.

Anyway your question is hypothetical and the reality is that whenever we have to defend ourselves or others it is our spirit that matters most and if we have a spirit that is itching for a fight then you're right - you might end up in jail and realize your self-fulfilling prophecy. Me on the otherhand - I will simply keep my mind and spirit where they need to be and everything else will take care of itself - it always has -  it always will.

Pat
Patrick "Kaponookalani" Campbell, Ph.D.
KAJUKENBO - Professor Kai Li - ETS / HKA
Kenpo - SGM Rick Alemany 
DZR Jujitsu - ETS / AJI
BJJ - ETS / USFBJJ / Master Joe Moreira
Combat Sambo - ETS / GCA / GM Alan New 
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Offline dom28

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Re: what is reasonable about reasonable force?
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2011, 10:22:52 AM »
i hope your right,but as they say hope for the best train for the worst
« Last Edit: January 16, 2011, 10:25:24 AM by dom28 »
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Offline onephatboydave

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Re: what is reasonable about reasonable force?
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2011, 10:27:45 AM »
Totally agree with you Sifu Pat, The Penal Code gives the definition on what is reasonable force within the law. what ever you do you will have to articulate why you used the force you used. Remember that the Penal Code states reasonable force which is necessary and considered reasonable by the lay person not the martial artist. No matter what you do you will be second guessed as to why. Use what you need to stop the threat and walk away wether it is a control technique, deabilitaing, or terminating you are the one who knows at that time what you have to do to get away..  
David Garcia    Student Blackbelt/Black Sash
Tony Ramos Kajukenbo
Under Grand Master David V. Amiccuci
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Offline dom28

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Re: what is reasonable about reasonable force?
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2011, 11:47:36 AM »
it would be great if we could always say lets not fight i am taking the high road,we had a case in london a lawyer  was mugged by two men he gave them all his money they went to walk away then turned round and stabbed him to death he was heard screaming but i gave you everything,sometimes being the bigger person dose not help you when they not only want your money but blood too.as for legal force,a freind of mine knew a boxer who got attacked by two men he hit them with a jab each knocking them out it was on cctv but he still got charged for unreasonable force.as tim larkin says "violence is rarely the answer but when it is it's the only answer
« Last Edit: January 16, 2011, 12:15:07 PM by dom28 »
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Offline onephatboydave

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Re: what is reasonable about reasonable force?
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2011, 12:31:37 PM »
I think your question is what is reasonable. I am not saying don't defend yourself only you can know what is necessary in the situation your in. Why should you care what I think if you terminated a person because he pulled a knife, gun whateva on you. Your the one who has to articulate why. I teach students to use common sense do what you have to do to get away with your life. Bottom line.
David Garcia    Student Blackbelt/Black Sash
Tony Ramos Kajukenbo
Under Grand Master David V. Amiccuci
Honor, Bravery, Loyalty,Family

Offline dom28

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Re: what is reasonable about reasonable force?
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2011, 03:45:42 PM »
your right,as long as you get out of thear alive is what counts.if it takes a hard chose well thats the reason kenpo,kajukenbo,ect are built the way they are so you have tools to do what ever you need
DOMINIC DILLON INSTRUCTOR AT THE NORWICH KENPO SELF-DEFENCE CLUB

Offline Greg Hoyt

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Re: what is reasonable about reasonable force?
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2011, 06:33:48 PM »
It's been a long time since I've had to put my hands on anyone with intent.  I'm older, and have no need to prove myself to anyone.  I also don't go where I used to go, I don't hang out with the old crowd, and I try not to act like an idiot like I used to.  I have walked away from two fights since earning my Black Belt.  I'm kinda proud of that.  Having said all that, I train for the bad situations that I have no control over.  We train to continue to fight as long as our assailant is fighting, and maybe just a tad bit longer.  That's from my own personal experience.  I have had situations where my opponent has gotten off the ground and I needed to re-attack.  I can't worry about reasonable force.  Once the bell rings it's all about staying alive.  We train for the street.  We train for the super bad situations where it's often life or death.  God forbid anything should happen to any of us....but we train for the worst.  With a weapon attack, I teach our students to disarm, disable, but don't kill the attacker unless it is necessary.  It all just depends. 
Thanks.
Sifu Greg Hoyt
Hoyt's Kajukenbo, Peoria, Arizona
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Offline Chief Instructor

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Re: what is reasonable about reasonable force?
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2011, 04:06:47 PM »
Sifu Greg, I think your answer is both morally and legally correct.
Sigung Andrew Evans, KSDI #888
Hokkien Martial Arts, Topeka, KS
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Offline Aloha Aina

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Re: what is reasonable about reasonable force?
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2011, 06:38:59 AM »
I agree. good answer Sibak Greg!
Thanks
Sifu Renato Bernardino

Under GM Angel Garcia
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Offline TwistedTiger

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Re: what is reasonable about reasonable force?
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2011, 11:50:52 AM »
Interesting question. Here is 1 more " What if ", What if, the guy you just knocked down and got back up was GM So and So, or maybe he is 1 of 100's of other titles out here? People don't wear thier belts in public, nor do they tell you they're a contract killer. Everyone has bad days, there are a ton of reasons that drive even the Nicest of people to do things they normally wouldn't do. Such as alcohol and other drugs, death of a family member, mental and emotional breakdowns...etc Now ask this question again.
Mike Edmondson Sr
Kajukenbo Tum Pai, Black belt, under Shifu Kirklin T. Rask

Offline grand master hemenes

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Re: what is reasonable about reasonable force?
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2011, 04:48:50 PM »
ok here's one for you about 4 years ago or so I got into a spot that I could not get out of the guy swung at me first I moved and hit him one time he went out cold fell and hit his head they took to the hospital I left because I new what was coming next! well the officer call me on my cell phone and wanted me to come in I told him no did not want to go to jail, told him the story his answer  was because who I was I should have just stood there and not hit him back.. funny! well the DA tried to charge me with attempted murder because of the martial arts training well long story short I had to go to my home in Tahoe for three months and 20k for my lawyer to get me off! was it worth me hitting him no not at all! would I hit him again yep! it just sometimes a double edge sword out there. but I was always thought the best fight is no fight at all


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Offline Chief Instructor

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Re: what is reasonable about reasonable force?
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2012, 12:15:40 PM »
GM Hemenes,

That sucks! Out of curiosity, were there any witnesses to back up your side of the story?
Sigung Andrew Evans, KSDI #888
Hokkien Martial Arts, Topeka, KS
http://www.TopekaKarate.com