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Is your martial art outdated?

Author Topic: Is your martial art outdated?  (Read 2990 times)

Offline Mitch Powell

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Is your martial art outdated?
« on: January 15, 2011, 11:12:12 AM »
Greetings,

When martial arts systems are created they often reflect the types of attacks people faced at the time the art was created. The first Kajukenbo system contains techniques against grabs, punch attacks, knife and club attacks and multiple person attacks. That should tell us what the creators faced at that particular time in Hawaii. There primary concern was defending themselves against someone grabbing them, punching at them, trying to stab them with a knife, hitting them with a club, or a gang of people trying to attack them.

Some of the older systems have techniques that were used to pull someone from a horse who is trying to slice you up with a long knife. Again, the techniques of the art are based on the types of attacks the creator(s) knew they would face.

1. What types of attacks will you or your students face in today's world?
2. Does your art take those types of attacks into account?
3. Do your practice to defend against those types of attacks?
Powell's MMA Academy (KSDI#549)
Grandmaster Mitch Powell (Emperado Method)
(707) 344-1655  coachmitchpowell@hotmail.com

Offline Wado

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Re: Is your martial art outdated?
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2011, 04:30:08 PM »
Greetings,

When martial arts systems are created they often reflect the types of attacks people faced at the time the art was created. The first Kajukenbo system contains techniques against grabs, punch attacks, knife and club attacks and multiple person attacks. That should tell us what the creators faced at that particular time in Hawaii. There primary concern was defending themselves against someone grabbing them, punching at them, trying to stab them with a knife, hitting them with a club, or a gang of people trying to attack them.

I think at some point, many of the techniques are really just to represent situations you might be in and tricks you might be able to use. At some point, you don't worry about the technique as much as practice in a re-enactment of a real world situation.

I do not have as much real world experience compared to many in Kajukenbo; and I do really appreciate and respect those that do as part of living a hard life and putting themselves in dangerous situations such as law enforcement. I will never be as good as the founders and the greats that followed, in what they went through. I don't think I'm alone, all we can do is train sincerely and hard.

Self-defense training is always at a disadvantage to that of the attacker. We have to train for every possible situation, but the attacker only has to train for one or two situations that they plan on using to get you. They have the initiative almost always and determine the level of aggression and the numbers.

I think it is a great idea to train in situations that are relevant for today, but as far as techniques go, I think that comes down to fundamentals, the basics... then in any situation, unlimited response is allowed.

Some of the older systems have techniques that were used to pull someone from a horse who is trying to slice you up with a long knife. Again, the techniques of the art are based on the types of attacks the creator(s) knew they would face.

Well what about an attacker on a motorcycle swinging a baseball bat with nails sticking out of it?

Actually I was joking, but this is such a complex topic to me, I don't even know where to begin. Even the discussion of knife counters is one that could be debated passed exhaustion and never really come to agreement. Some train for shanks and screw drivers, others train for razor blades, and some for Rambo knives, etc. then it is like, your technique won't work because... blah, blah, blah.

1. What types of attacks will you or your students face in today's world?
2. Does your art take those types of attacks into account?
3. Do your practice to defend against those types of attacks?


To know what to be training for, I think some look for guidance from folks like you GM Powell because you have the data of what is going on. As for throwing out the old that does not apply, I don't see that, I see people taking something old and often trying to shoehorn the movements into something modern, but who really knows how practical that is as it isn't the same context as the original. I can just take the 5th and say "no comment." Maybe I can come back later with a better answer.

For now, I would say that maybe it is like an all you can eat salad bar. People are exposed to all the techniques, but they tend to pick and choose only those dishes that they like. Rather than concentrate too much on what dishes they choose, I think it is more important to focus to ensure that the ingredients put into the dishes are of top quality. So it isn't as much what you choose, but that the quality of it is good.

The old saying, "garbage in, garbage out".
« Last Edit: January 16, 2011, 04:42:55 PM by Wado »
W. Yamauchi
Mateo Kajukenbo
Seattle, Washington

Offline Aloha Aina

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Re: Is your martial art outdated?
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2011, 05:23:16 PM »
Aloha,

I think the thing is about the concepts we train more than the techniques...
...I'm not really fond on trying to be the best on desarming a gun inches near my head when if that could happen only in some hostage or mad guy situation...not very often...not very real for training like it's that important IMHO...
If someone uses a firearm with some knowledge they wont be near your krav technique...
I stick with the concepts, and for me, Kaju ones are most updated ever...more than that is the non stoping in evolving wich is a must in Kajukenbo definition...that's was one of the reasons for 10 years of Shotokan proved enough for me...with no disrespect offcourse.

Aloha&Mahalo
Sifu Renato Bernardino

Under GM Angel Garcia
Kajukenbo Portugal
www.kajukenbo.pt

Offline sifutimg

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Re: Is your martial art outdated?
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2011, 12:49:29 AM »
Gone are the days where two good'ole boys fought and when one was down, they chalked it up to just being beat.  A certain type of respect was then put into place and that person would go back to the drawing board or just move on with their life or even become the best of friends with that person.

Now a days if you put somebody down you have to worry they come back and jump you with friends, stab you in the back or shoot you from a distance.  Case and point, a friend who never fights but trains religiously ended up in a fight (not by his own choosing) and put the guy down several times.  The guy wasn't really hurt, just scrapped up in typical fashion.  A week later or so this guy and two of his friends jumped my friend on his front lawn late at night and beat the crap out of him and he darn near ended up in the hospital.  Thankfully a neighbor heard the commotion and probably saved my friends life. 

I believe we as instructors have a huge responsibility in what we teach and it's up to each of us to do the research, ask the questions, and trust those before us whom have fought a lot.  In GM Powell's first paragraph I feel describes what types of categories of attacks are in place and I don't think that changes too much however the intensity at which folks may express themselves based on what is in place today needs to be understood and taken into account.  My first teacher taught us this - Talk Your way Out - Hurt Your Way Out - Maim Your Way Out - Kill Your Way Out.  I always paid attention to this as a guide to keep a certain responsibility in how we defend ourselves.  This of course can blow up real quick depending on the situation.  Folks just seem to be desensitized to the human condition these days ? Yikes!

To answers GM Powell's first question, I think we will potentially face all the attacks in GM Powell's first paragraph so train those things and what better way to train them than training them Kaju style.

Second & Third question would be Yes as said types of attacks are what we train for. 

Furthermore I believe we need to be as creative and innovative as possible as instructors and goes a long way in preparing our students to "Go Home" as I like to call it.  Our grabs, punching attacks, multi-man, club, knife variations all serve to showcase potentialities.  What I tell my students is these movements are a framework where principles and techniques are put together in response to a common attack as well as a process to deal with it.  Once these basics and frameworks are part of the student?s skill set we can challenge each student differently.  This is where the innovation and creativity lies in how we challenge them throwing things outside the norm at them and see how they cope. 

Between our research, trust in our instructors whom have had real & successful experiences on the street, and being as creative and innovative as possible all the while keeping it real I believe is a method to keep training fresh and up to date.  I believe Kajukenbo is that method, that process, that foundational framework, that recipe that is timeless, and a martial art that keeps it real.

My thoughts.

Respectfully,
Tim
Grandmaster Tim Gagnier
Student of Great Grandmaster Charles Gaylord & Grandmaster Sid Lopez
Chief Instructor Pacific Wind Kajukenbo
Student Forever
Yamhill, Oregon

Offline Mitch Powell

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Re: Is your martial art outdated?
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2011, 09:58:03 AM »
Greetings,

I was hoping someone would recognize that the types of attacks Sijo and our elders faced in their day when Kajukenbo was created are pretty much the same ones we face today. Good job Tim! If the art you practice offers techniques against people punching at you, grabbing you, trying to cut you with a knife or hit you with a club/stick, and attacks by multiple people then you are on the right track. If not, you may need to expand your training.

If you have those techniques in place, are they practiced at a level of intensity where you could apply those movements in a real attack situation. If you are not striking your attacker with full force at full speed and your attacker(s) are not padded up to take that full force trauma then you are probably fooling yourself into thinking you will have that kind of force/power, speed, and accuracy when the attack is for real.

That doesn't mean every practice has to be in RedMan suits or that you have to even buy a RedMan suit. Try having the student defend against a padded attack once a week or even once a month, but try it. See how everything changes.

You can also make up your own padded suit. You don't have to buy a RedMan or FIST suit. Buy some real shin pads, head gear, and a boxer's chest protector from Combat Sports. Have your attacker put shin guards on their shins and forearms. Have them wear MMA gloves so they can punch and grab or hold a weapon. Have them wear head gear to protect the head and face (buy full-face gear) and then have them wear a boxer's chest protector so full force body shots can be delivered. It will cost you a couple hundred dollars but will change everything you know about your ability to make your techniques work, which ones don't work--at least for you, and what you need to work on to stay alive.
Powell's MMA Academy (KSDI#549)
Grandmaster Mitch Powell (Emperado Method)
(707) 344-1655  coachmitchpowell@hotmail.com

Offline sifutimg

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Re: Is your martial art outdated?
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2011, 10:13:26 AM »
Along those same lines with a padded attacker, my wife and I bought a Redman suit (although it's purple  :D) and pad up someone about the same frequency as GM Powell suggested.  It's a very good test for sure.  My wife Sifu Becky facilitated at the last Northwest Kajukenbo Gathering a section where we had one of our students pad up and just lined up all that was in the room and allowed each participate to "go".  It was really interesting watching the participates do their thing.  Some got a rude awakening while others did very well.  Sigung Trent Junker even got into the suit for one of the sections, that was fun to watch  ;D.

Goodtimes. 

With Respect,
Tim
Grandmaster Tim Gagnier
Student of Great Grandmaster Charles Gaylord & Grandmaster Sid Lopez
Chief Instructor Pacific Wind Kajukenbo
Student Forever
Yamhill, Oregon

Offline Wado

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Re: Is your martial art outdated?
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2011, 01:46:51 PM »

Good points about training. I honestly thought it was a given that one has to train with contact and pressure test. I always think of kaju as being with heavy contact, whether that be related to street, RBSD, MMA, etc. So no need to really call that out.

There is an analogy I have written about in the past based on the "bleed effect" in martial arts between fact, theory, and speculation. Fact is something that you know works because you have personally done it or have witnessed someone else do it. Theory is something that you are pretty sure will work because you have practiced it, you understand how it works, and it works in training against a resisting opponent. Speculation is something someone else says works or you think will work, but you do not have enough information and practice to know if it really works.

When under fire in real life, people should know to stick to facts and theory, and avoid trying anything that is speculation.

Most of what we train in is theory. I mean how many, for example, have actually broken someone's arm with an armbar. Those that have broken someone elses arm (or in some cases gotten their own arm broken), it is fact to them. For the rest, you can practice it all the time and pretty much know it should work, but until you actually break an arm, it is theory.

An issue is when people believe something they are doing will work, but it is really speculation because it is untested by them under fire. This is the bleed effect when speculation bleeds into theory or fact in the minds of a student.

By padding up and going at it 100%, these pressure tests help to separate the what is speculation from the what is theory. This is all to help in getting students to the facts.

Everyone should evaluate if what they are doing is really theory and fact, or is it mainly based on speculation. Pressure testing will be a big factor in this evaluation.


As for technique, one of the most basic self-defense situations is probably one or two attackers grabbing a person and one in front, and one or two others near by. This situation and variations is covered in the 3-person sets. It is a good one to work all the different techniques from, but not to train techniques but to pressure test and find where fundamentals may be lacking.
W. Yamauchi
Mateo Kajukenbo
Seattle, Washington

Offline Greg Hoyt

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Re: Is your martial art outdated?
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2011, 10:44:15 AM »
Aloha Everyone,
I believe the techniques Sijo and the other founders developed apply to today's world.  We train all the original tricks, over and over again.  We do monkey line, bullring, two man bull ring, wall fights, night training, punch spurs, ground scramble with weapons, etc.  Most of our sparing/drills are done pretty close to full contact, and we throw random weapons into the attack at any given time. 
I also believe that we need to add some elements to our training that wasn't original method.  Ground figting, gun defenses just to name a few. 
We try to train hard, to put as much reality into our situation sets as possible.  I believe that all Martial Arts styles have something to offer.  That being said, I agree with GM Powell and all the Kajukenbo Instructors, that if you aren't making significant contact on a regular basis, you won't be ready when the bell rings. 
Respectfully Submitted,
Greg
Sifu Greg Hoyt
Hoyt's Kajukenbo, Peoria, Arizona
Under Sigung Trent Sera, Professor Kailani Koa
Train Hard - Fight Dirty