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original Prof. Chow drills

Author Topic: original Prof. Chow drills  (Read 16992 times)

Offline Kenpo_85

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Re: original Prof. Chow drills
« Reply #30 on: October 19, 2010, 10:05:57 AM »
Prof. Chow was pretty well known for his kenpo-karate and I don't see him going to another teacher and taking lessons.

Don't forget that Professor Chow was 28 years old when Mitose began teaching. Professor was a life long student of the martial arts, as many Hawaiians were at the time, training in whatever art(s) they had the opportunity to train in just to survive the brutal streets. I know someone who personally saw Chow do a Lua demonstration, but that info is not available on the internet. He had plenty of time before Kenpo to earn a Judo black belt.

Offline Danjo

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Re: original Prof. Chow drills
« Reply #31 on: October 19, 2010, 12:23:23 PM »
Danjo,

We understand that Sijo said Professor Chow was a judo black belt so if that's the case then we should be able to locate people who were aware of when Prof. Chow trained in judo and who promoted him. There were only a couple of legit judo teachers in Hawaii at the time. The dan zan ryu folks would know if Professor Chow was promoted in their art. If Prof. Chow is not listed in their organization, then perhaps Prof. Bishop or someone else on the cafe knows the names of the other judo teachers in Hawaii and we can try and see if any of them claim to have promoted Prof. Chow.

Here's what I'm thinking. Prof. Chow was pretty well known for his kenpo-karate and I don't see him going to another teacher and taking lessons. Not back then. We all know Prof. Chow went to Prof. Okizaki's school and watched, but I've never heard anyone say anything about him getting on the mat to train. He may have cross-trained with his brother or something like that.

Other than that, Judo has a set number of techniques that you must be able to demonstrate in order to earn a black belt. Those techniques are not easy to learn and take time on the mat to perfect.

I guess the question to others is did Prof. Chow spend four to five years on the mat perfecting these techniques under a legitimate judo teacher and then pass a black belt test?




I agree it's a question. I'm sure that Sijo was probably told that by Prof. Chow. Be interesting to run all that down. My main point was that from what I have heard from Bill Chun Jr. and Sam Kuoha and others, Prof. Chow's teaching changed a lot over the years and that grappling was a part of it from time to time depending on his mood. I'm sure if Chun said he learned certain things from Prof. Chow, then he must have learned them from Prof. Chow. There's no reason to think otherwise.
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Offline Mitch Powell

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Re: original Prof. Chow drills
« Reply #32 on: October 19, 2010, 11:20:06 PM »
The comment about Prof. Chow being 28 years old when he started training with GGM Mitosi was smart thinking because it did give him time to train in other arts before kenpo. There were judo classes at the YMCA's and Catholic organizations, so Prof. Chow could have trained at those places. That would at least give him the basics. The book that GGM Mitosi produced shows a lot of locks and throws and since Prof. Chow was one of GGM Mitosi's early students, we know Prof. Chow was exposed to those techniques and had that knowledge. Still, that doesn't make him a black belt.

I'm curious about the comment of Ed Parker being a judo black belt. Is that true? It's hard to believe Prof. Chow and Ed Parker were both judo black belts.

I remember doing some research and was surprised to learn that GM Holck was not a judo black belt when he got together with Sijo and others to create Kajukenbo. He was a dan zan ryu black belt but not a judo black belt. That happened around 1950 or 52--something like that. I'm sure Prof. Bishop has the year. 
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Offline John Bishop

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Re: original Prof. Chow drills
« Reply #33 on: October 20, 2010, 04:18:55 AM »
Judo was practiced in Hawaii since the late 1800's.  There were many judo instructors on the islands before Okazaki's Kodenkan.  http://hawaiijudo.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=16&Itemid=29

Sijo was told by Prof. Chow that he was a 5th dan in judo.  Sijo did say that Chow was adept at judo, and taught them judo at times.  Too much judo sometimes, Sijo would say.  
Sijo was not sure who Chow's judo teacher was.  He assumed it was from the Okazaki dojo, since Chow's brothers had trained there.
In a video interview of Sijo and Joe Holck, Holck mentions one day while training alongside Chow at the Okazaki dojo, Chow suggested that they should go over to Mitose's school and see what kenpo was like.  So it appears that Chow was training in judo or jujitsu before he joined Mitose's school

There were rumors for years that Ed Parker was a judo black belt.  He did list judo and boxing as things he did before kenpo, but didn't go into detail on anything but his kenpo training.  Within the last couple of years one of his earliest students (Mills Crenshaw) has started participating in some of the kenpo forums.  He was one of the students Parker taught at BYU.  Crenshaw has been able to provide a lot of information on Parker's early teaching days.  
As you can see from the below page from the 1956 BYU Year Book, Parker was a member of the BYU judo club.  It is said that he was a 3rd dan and the team captain at the time.
The assumption about why he didn't continue teaching judo, is because judo was pretty common, while karate was extremely rare on the mainland in the 50's.  Being a karate teacher allowed him to be a pioneer, which he couldn't be in judo, since judo had been taught on the U.S. mainland since 1902.  

 
« Last Edit: October 20, 2010, 04:21:54 AM by John Bishop »
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Offline Mitch Powell

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Re: original Prof. Chow drills
« Reply #34 on: October 20, 2010, 07:49:41 PM »
I knew we could count on Prof. Bishop. Great information! It sounds like these guys all trained in judo and when karate/kenpo came along they went that direction. It kinda reminds me of the 70s when kung fu took off and a lot of students left karate to study kung fu. Or even the evolution of MMA with so many students leaving traditional schools for MMA.

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Offline Wado

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Re: original Prof. Chow drills
« Reply #35 on: October 20, 2010, 08:16:24 PM »
I knew we could count on Prof. Bishop. Great information! It sounds like these guys all trained in judo and when karate/kenpo came along they went that direction. It kinda reminds me of the 70s when kung fu took off and a lot of students left karate to study kung fu. Or even the evolution of MMA with so many students leaving traditional schools for MMA.

Yes, I agree, great information. Thanks Professor Bishop and all.

I also think that this demonstrates something of the nature of martial arts training back 50-80 years ago. It was fairly common for martial artists to have strong backgrounds in something like Judo BEFORE training in other martial arts.

I feel this is an important distinction when evaluating drills or techniques as they may have been taught back then. That is when you and/or your training partner already have a foundation in Judo, some of the fundamentals as well as strong fighting spirit are not needed to be taught because they are already present.

Something like a training drill can be good for learning technique, but I feel it is better at helping to identify where fundamentals are lacking in a martial artist. Things that a person needs to learn.

How necessary is something like MMA if every martial artist today was already a Judo blackbelt before training in Kajukenbo? Makes me wonder how things would be different.
W. Yamauchi
Mateo Kajukenbo
Seattle, Washington

Offline Danjo

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Re: original Prof. Chow drills
« Reply #36 on: October 21, 2010, 12:55:34 PM »
I knew we could count on Prof. Bishop. Great information! It sounds like these guys all trained in judo and when karate/kenpo came along they went that direction. It kinda reminds me of the 70s when kung fu took off and a lot of students left karate to study kung fu. Or even the evolution of MMA with so many students leaving traditional schools for MMA.

Yes, I agree, great information. Thanks Professor Bishop and all.

I also think that this demonstrates something of the nature of martial arts training back 50-80 years ago. It was fairly common for martial artists to have strong backgrounds in something like Judo BEFORE training in other martial arts.

I feel this is an important distinction when evaluating drills or techniques as they may have been taught back then. That is when you and/or your training partner already have a foundation in Judo, some of the fundamentals as well as strong fighting spirit are not needed to be taught because they are already present.

Something like a training drill can be good for learning technique, but I feel it is better at helping to identify where fundamentals are lacking in a martial artist. Things that a person needs to learn.

How necessary is something like MMA if every martial artist today was already a Judo blackbelt before training in Kajukenbo? Makes me wonder how things would be different.

Excellent Points!
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Dan Weston
3rd Degree Black Belt under Prof. Bishop
FMAA
Don't tell me how much you honor Sijo, if you don't respect his wishes.

Offline punisher73

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Re: original Prof. Chow drills
« Reply #37 on: October 22, 2010, 07:04:12 AM »
I knew we could count on Prof. Bishop. Great information! It sounds like these guys all trained in judo and when karate/kenpo came along they went that direction. It kinda reminds me of the 70s when kung fu took off and a lot of students left karate to study kung fu. Or even the evolution of MMA with so many students leaving traditional schools for MMA.

Yes, I agree, great information. Thanks Professor Bishop and all.

I also think that this demonstrates something of the nature of martial arts training back 50-80 years ago. It was fairly common for martial artists to have strong backgrounds in something like Judo BEFORE training in other martial arts.

I feel this is an important distinction when evaluating drills or techniques as they may have been taught back then. That is when you and/or your training partner already have a foundation in Judo, some of the fundamentals as well as strong fighting spirit are not needed to be taught because they are already present.

Something like a training drill can be good for learning technique, but I feel it is better at helping to identify where fundamentals are lacking in a martial artist. Things that a person needs to learn.

How necessary is something like MMA if every martial artist today was already a Judo blackbelt before training in Kajukenbo? Makes me wonder how things would be different.

I agree wholeheartedly.  How many times have you seen someone practice a counter-grappling technique and the person has no idea how to even correctly perform the attack.  How are you actually going to learn to defend against an attack that isn't even done properly.  I have read that in Ed Parker's kenpo most teach the defense as "against an attempted X" because there is the lack of grappling methods.  Also, taken out are the breakfalls etc. that were a part of the early training.  I think that is one of the reasons why kajukenbo has stayed effective all of these years.  It is not taught to appeal to the mass public and watered down so EVERYONE wants to do it.
Kevin A. Hirakis
SW Michigan