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How do you jiu-jitsu?

Author Topic: How do you jiu-jitsu?  (Read 29273 times)

Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: How do you jiu-jitsu?
« Reply #60 on: November 20, 2010, 04:53:40 PM »
I have always thought that many of the pinians, punch arts and grab arts if done correctly protect from the rear naked...glad to see people looking out side the box...Goodtimes....
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Offline Jason Goldsmith

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Re: How do you jiu-jitsu?
« Reply #61 on: November 20, 2010, 06:28:15 PM »
The body triangle has never been a move I liked since it makes me also immobile...but it depends on the level of both grapplers...a great grappler against an inferior one the move makes sense to me...

though the pressure from the body triangle when on top as it was made to be used is directly on the back not the front of the body...it's the pelvis of the top person pushing downward while anchored with the legs that creates the pressure and the tap on skilled people...not the abdominal pressure.  Most complain of low back pain and that is the DC  in me who sees and hears this....




I typically don't apply a lot of body triangles from the top because it makes me rather immobile and as a small guy I tend to do my damage from the top quick and get out, but you are right that from the top it hurts the back.  When I take an opponent's back, it tends to be more of an abdomen squeeze.  As you know, the pressure is on the side of the leg across the torso, which is flipped when you are on top to when you take the back.  Regardless, it's not the kidneys. 
Sifu Jason Goldsmith
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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: How do you jiu-jitsu?
« Reply #62 on: November 20, 2010, 06:38:45 PM »
Oh you were taking about while holding the guard?  I thought we had been taking about rear naked chokes...so I thought back...It really is for long legged people.....I have tapped guys with it...while goofing around free grappling, but it's not a go to for me....I guess,. none of you....to much fun to move about and use submissions and strikes.....us Kaju guys....
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Offline Jason Goldsmith

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Re: How do you jiu-jitsu?
« Reply #63 on: November 20, 2010, 06:52:10 PM »
No, I mean the back; hooks in (transitioned to the body triangle), not the guard; in that case the leg goes across the abdomen, and causes pressure there.  In the case of the guard and the mount, the leg goes across the back, and puts pressure there. 
Sifu Jason Goldsmith
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Offline Wado

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Re: How do you jiu-jitsu?
« Reply #64 on: November 20, 2010, 07:42:58 PM »
No, I mean the back; hooks in (transitioned to the body triangle), not the guard; in that case the leg goes across the abdomen, and causes pressure there.  In the case of the guard and the mount, the leg goes across the back, and puts pressure there.  

I think it depends on the where the triangle located. When first applied it squeezes the ribs but almost immediate the body collapses with elbows coming down in response. When the elbows come down, I think this protects the ribs. Then the pressure shifts to the lower back (making it arch). This is where it hurts after it is all done. IME.

FYI: Since my legs are short, the body triangle is almost impossible for me to use in any "normal" sense. I have to set it up from the side. So from the back of the opponent, I'll attack the neck, while the opponent is fending I shift to the side and body scissor them. This brings them deep between my legs so I get maximum reach with my heel under their armpit. If they roll here into me, I can try for an armbar instead of choke. Otherwise, I can go to the back, leaving my heel on the other side of their abdomen and lock in the triangle, hands free.

Any decent grappler can counter my moves, so adding strikes is necessary for anything to really work.  It is not the standard setup to me, it is a trick that can catch someone who doesn't see it coming.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2010, 07:50:05 PM by Wado »
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Offline Ron Baker

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Re: How do you jiu-jitsu?
« Reply #65 on: November 20, 2010, 09:35:04 PM »
Tried the body triangle on a guy my size.  It does put the pain to him, but it made me susceptible to an ankle lock.  Tried the triangle on a guy with a 34 inch waist, but my legs are too short. 

Gonna have to leave it out of the arsenal.
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Offline Greg Hoyt

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Re: How do you jiu-jitsu?
« Reply #66 on: November 21, 2010, 10:38:08 AM »
You can avoid the ankle lock during the body triangle by tucking your foot behind your partners thigh. 
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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: How do you jiu-jitsu?
« Reply #67 on: November 21, 2010, 01:03:34 PM »
Jason that was the one I referred to when the pelvic pressure causes lowback pressure from the downward pressure...really this technique is far and few between with so many other superior moves it falls low on the priority scale.  The best moves are ones that can be used by a majority of users without worrying so much about certain physical limitations....
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Champions aren't made in the gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them a desire,a dream,a vision

Offline Wado

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Re: How do you jiu-jitsu?
« Reply #68 on: November 21, 2010, 02:17:50 PM »
Jason that was the one I referred to when the pelvic pressure causes lowback pressure from the downward pressure...really this technique is far and few between with so many other superior moves it falls low on the priority scale.  The best moves are ones that can be used by a majority of users without worrying so much about certain physical limitations....

I think in my original post about it I stated, "Of course, this only works on people I can triangle." From there the discussion went on about the merits of the technique. To be clear, very rarely would I use it for the same reasons already discussed in this thread. Just like I've thrown out the Omoplata as a technique I rarely use because it just doesn't work for me on someone twice my size. The body triangle just doesn't work for me on bigger people. (And now someone will post a discussion about the omoplata... :P )

Anyway, what I was trying to get at was get the opponent to raise their hands, then do something to get them to drop their hands. When the hands drop this allows for a window of opportunity to sink in the RNC. Another method then would be to strike or push the hands down before sinking in the RNC.

Here is a more common technique I like to use. Slap them in the side of the head to stun them, when the hands come up, strike/push the arms down, as you come back up, lock in the RNC. This is not the full description, just a simplified idea of what is done. It is all situational.

P.S. These aren't intended for submission fighting, they are for quick results, in a longer encounter any good grappler could be able to counter these.



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Offline Jason Goldsmith

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Re: How do you jiu-jitsu?
« Reply #69 on: November 21, 2010, 05:49:40 PM »
Jason that was the one I referred to when the pelvic pressure causes lowback pressure from the downward pressure...really this technique is far and few between with so many other superior moves it falls low on the priority scale.  The best moves are ones that can be used by a majority of users without worrying so much about certain physical limitations....

Gotcha; From what I have seen, however, the body triangle works quite well when you are fighting to finish off a RNC; it's rather high percentage in my experiences.
Sifu Jason Goldsmith
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Offline Jason Goldsmith

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Re: How do you jiu-jitsu?
« Reply #70 on: November 21, 2010, 05:51:30 PM »
So in regards to omoplatas, I find that I rarely get a tap with them, but I almost always gain positional advantage with them, even against 200 lb guys (I weigh 150).  From a guard, I end in side control, which is a win for me.  There also a bunch of ways to make it work against bigger people to get a tap; have a BJJ guy show you, they are pretty slick.
Sifu Jason Goldsmith
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Offline Wado

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Re: How do you jiu-jitsu?
« Reply #71 on: November 21, 2010, 09:04:59 PM »
So in regards to omoplatas, I find that I rarely get a tap with them, but I almost always gain positional advantage with them, even against 200 lb guys (I weigh 150).  From a guard, I end in side control, which is a win for me.  There also a bunch of ways to make it work against bigger people to get a tap; have a BJJ guy show you, they are pretty slick.

It's because of BJJ training that I gave up on the omoplata on people a lot bigger than me. However, there are a lot that are better than me and a lot left for me to learn. A problem I found with omoplata is the lack of control over the hip of a much larger opponent. Since it is a shoulder lock, if the opponent is flat on their stomach the hip can be blocked with a knee to the side (this does work). However, omoplata technique uses the leg on the arm, which means the hip is blocked using my arm and the opponent is not laying flat on the ground.  Anyway, I've had much better success with an arm bar over a shoulder lock on much bigger opponents from the same position.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2010, 09:06:32 PM by Wado »
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Offline Jason Goldsmith

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Re: How do you jiu-jitsu?
« Reply #72 on: November 22, 2010, 09:57:13 AM »

It's because of BJJ training that I gave up on the omoplata on people a lot bigger than me. However, there are a lot that are better than me and a lot left for me to learn. A problem I found with omoplata is the lack of control over the hip of a much larger opponent. Since it is a shoulder lock, if the opponent is flat on their stomach the hip can be blocked with a knee to the side (this does work). However, omoplata technique uses the leg on the arm, which means the hip is blocked using my arm and the opponent is not laying flat on the ground.  Anyway, I've had much better success with an arm bar over a shoulder lock on much bigger opponents from the same position.


My BJJ coach recently showed several ways to solve that exact problem with the hip; the most successful is grabbing their far side of the hip as you go for the lock, and pushing them away from to, flattening them out so they are belly-on-the-ground.
Sifu Jason Goldsmith
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Offline Wado

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Re: How do you jiu-jitsu?
« Reply #73 on: November 22, 2010, 10:02:25 AM »
Woot. Thanks, gives me something to try out.

P.S. Omoplata used to be my favorite technique. I was a Omoplata machine in rolling.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2010, 10:04:24 AM by Wado »
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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: How do you jiu-jitsu?
« Reply #74 on: November 22, 2010, 10:47:12 AM »
Wow missed some good talks...omoplata works for me for submission and to turn the person belly down, but I have a big squatter leg doing it...like you guys stated it does make a difference..  of course it does depend on skill....as they say when skill is the same cubic inches takes over....but lets face it most big guys don't train the ground or most things that much...they just in most of their lives don't have to. 

Some schools are blessed to have huge guys to work with...I have a guy now at 400lbs that is quick and mobile...though a beginner he played alot of ball so he has the balance and aggression/toughness he needs for Kaju....I have had many big guys come and go....but all schools need the big guys to train with and the quick guys to train with and the tall guys to train with...and on and on....and by guys it could also means gals.  My wife is a great grappler and super flexible so she can get out of most submissions and pull of strange submissions...which makes it fun to grapple with her and just see what works and what doesn't.

All schools need that diversity to help the students grow....
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Champions aren't made in the gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them a desire,a dream,a vision