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How do you jiu-jitsu?

Author Topic: How do you jiu-jitsu?  (Read 29272 times)

Offline duane navarro

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How do you jiu-jitsu?
« on: March 27, 2009, 03:33:51 AM »
I was wondering how the rest of you incorperate thier ground work in thier SELF-DEFENSE training?Do you treat it as a go to in a selsf-defense  situation, are you that comfortable? Or do you train it as a last resort measure? I always hear that FIGHTS always go to the ground, But is that where we want it to stay if at all? It has been a while since I trained on the asphalt if you know what I mean  ;D    Also are there any books on STREET style jiu-jitsu fighting?
« Last Edit: March 27, 2009, 04:01:15 AM by duane navarro »
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Offline Danjo

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Re: How do you jiu-jitsu?
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2009, 10:15:39 AM »
In terms of the ground-work JJ, we train with the emphasis of getting back to your feet ASAP. We teach the guard/bottom scissors, arm-bar, mount etc. but it's mainly so that the person in those situations can get out of them effectively, not so that we can wrestle around on the ground. Much of how we train to escape is by using "dirty" tricks to get out of them that are not allowed in competition, i.e., pinching and twisting, breaking fingers, eye-pokes, ripping the ear and face, punching to the groin etc. etc. We also train grappling escapes, but like I said, it's mainly to get out of those situations.

The "most fights go to the ground" myth was a promotional tool used by the Gracies in their very successful efforts to promote their art.
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Offline Wado

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Re: How do you jiu-jitsu?
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2009, 10:18:42 AM »
I was wondering how the rest of you incorperate thier ground work in thier SELF-DEFENSE training?Do you treat it as a go to in a selsf-defense  situation, are you that comfortable? Or do you train it as a last resort measure? I always hear that FIGHTS always go to the ground, But is that where we want it to stay if at all? It has been a while since I trained on the asphalt if you know what I mean  ;D    Also are there any books on STREET style jiu-jitsu fighting?

Hi Duane,

First the role of ground training at our school is primarily for building good fundamentals and to learn how the same combat principles apply to all ranges of combat whether stick, knife, kicking, boxing, clinching, grappling or on the ground. Also it is good, hard, and can be really enjoyable training.

For self-defense, the ground training is limited to basically only things that work when standing up and against a wall.  For MMA fighters, this would be anything that would be used if you or your opponent was pinned against the side of a cage.  You would work your sweeps and primarily anything that gets someone off of you after breaking their posture.

As for books, I recommend "Brailian Jiu-Jitsu Self-Defense" by Royce Gracie and Charles Gracie.  I like the book because it covers mostly just stand up and against a wall applications of BJJ.  However, the techniques in the book should be taken only as a demonstration of what could be done... it is fairly clear in the book that the Gracie techniques are missing good atemi (striking) fundamentals and neglect combat principles.  For instance, there should be atemi to always stun or unbalance the enemy before attempting a lock or throw, this is missing from almost all the techniques in the book.  Also, they do not always protect their centerline; even at times leaving a knife blade pointing directly at them while applying technique.

The best training (other than to build good fundamentals) from BJJ is to roll with someone that is much bigger and stronger.  For self-defense it just means try this against a wall against someone one hundred pounds bigger than you.  When you can get something to work against someone twice your size, then it is something that you can take and build your self-defense from, IMHO.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2009, 10:20:34 AM by Wado »
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Offline Kenpo_85

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Re: How do you jiu-jitsu?
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2009, 11:31:56 AM »
The group that I belong to has stayed very true to our roots. We use the original arts that were taught by Marino Tiwanak in the early days, and they are comprised of the Kajukenbo he was taught at the Palama Settlement. Our Jujitsu resembles traditional Jujitsu - centered around striking, but using joint locks to position, disable, and take down your opponent, then to further disable them once they are on the ground ("rolling-around-on-the-street-with-your-opponent-Jujitsu" is a much more modern idea, and probably not a very good one, IMO). In general, we do not willingly put ourselves on the ground (with the exception of dropping to a knee), as that puts you in a VERY bad position in the situation that you have multiple attackers and just have not realized it, such as if the attacker's friends decide that they're going to jump in once they see their buddy being destroyed. If/when 3 or 4 guys attack, laying on the ground is not the position that I want to be in.

I always hear that FIGHTS always go to the ground

It is true that MANY fights, and maybe even most, end up on the ground, however, how many fights involve somebody that actually has an idea of how to fight? Most fights also have and ring/pinky finger knuckles broken and round house punches that don't come within a mile of connecting. We all know that most people on the street can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag, so if there is an experienced fighter involved then the fight is probably going to end up wherever he chooses to take it. You should be prepared for the event in which you are taken down, but don't assume you're going to get there because that's where the other guy wants you. That's like accepting the fact that the other guy is going to hit you. Don't let him... but if it happens, react accordingly.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2009, 11:53:48 AM by Kenpo_85 »

Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: How do you jiu-jitsu?
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2009, 02:00:36 PM »
We work all levels, stand up to the ground, just ground, taking the person down for control striking or submission and also getting up from the ground.  Balance, relaxation, awareness for submissions has to be there.  Wrestling and submission work are very different and need to be addresses that way.  Striking on the ground is Very different that striking while standing.
 Also is very good submission person can submit someone is seconds just like a knockout can happen so cana break or choke....
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Offline jensad

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Re: How do you jiu-jitsu?
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2009, 06:24:07 PM »
What you said Kenpo_35 makes sense to me as I was taught the "old style" by GGM Gaylord.  And many of his punching attacks, some grab arts, and self defense as I label them, "others" were designed to keep you standing and then go down to control and/or kill the person with a lethal strike/punch/kick/fill in here.

I think the beauty of Kajukenbo is that as with many things in life, we can adopt a new concept, disregard the concept or integrate it into Kajukenbo due to our diversity with is one of our strength.

Good luck to all and keep Kajukenbo STRONG and united!!!

jim nordlie, gm, student of GGM Gaylord since 1963.
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Offline Patrick Campbell

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Re: How do you jiu-jitsu?
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2009, 07:23:35 PM »
There always seems to be the debates amoung martial artists about the concept of training on the ground vs. this thing or that thing. As a Green Beret one of the primary ways we trained to survive was with our hands bound and feet bound as well as blindfolded because there was always the probnability that we would be captured. We were very scientific in our approach. Engineers and doctors verified the machines that we built to simulate bone breaking and other things so we knew that the techniques would destroy the opponents bone structure and nervous system. Although we trained live blades, etc... and hand-to-hand combatives this POW training changed my life as a martial artist. The training changed my thought processes concerning survival and all of the training I had up to that point. It's not how we train - it's why we train. It's not how we fight - it's why we fight!

The reality for me and my students is that we are training a survival mind set and a killer instinct because when it is kill or be killed how many of us will survive in that situation most others will die in? It's like looking in the mirror - you know what you really look like and how you really feel - who you are really looking at. Take a good long look if there is any confusion. You simply know whether or not you are a survivor. Rolling around on the ground might make the person feel good or prepare them for the ring or whatever but for me the only thing going to the ground is my enemy because I will simply destroy him with anything I have around me if it is not my empty hands.

My jujitsu concentration has always been hold breaks, pin point striking to vital areas combined with joint locks, throws, takedowns and locks, etc....from there in the street situation that is not life threatening per se we can simply go home. Grabbing is a given as are chokes etc... and there must be training in these areas. In that lethal situation however I might as well do a double dknee drop to the chest in order to destroy his diaphram and breathing processes. I may do a "chop block" to both knees and break both of his knees. Who knows?

Much of the jujitsu training today centers around ground work because in the ring, yeah the fights do go to the ground. MMA prevalence is a reflection of this reality. There is nothing to debate. However, we must remember that the ring is not the street and a killer doesn't care what degree your black belt is or if you know how to work from the ground. I am more dangerous in those situations most would die in because of the state of desperation I am in. This is the level of desperation that I foster in training. 

It's all about survival for me this is how I was raised. When I look in the mirror I am not kiding myself. When I wake up in the morning I am not confused. If the ground training is important to the martial artist then there has to be a reason for it and like looking in the mirror the martial artists knows what this reason is. So for me there is no debate in the matter. I will simply destroy my enemy by any means necessary - this is the heart of the matter. 

IMHO

Pat
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Offline duane navarro

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Re: How do you jiu-jitsu?
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2009, 11:51:23 AM »
I just want to say first off that these are all great ideas, it is great that we can get together and cummunicate the different styles and training at our schools. Also thanks for the replies, I am glad you guys are on my side  ;) I have been trying to lokk up info on the judo/jiu-jitsu side of KAJUKENBO and have been having a hard time finding who first incorperated it into KAJ. I havent been to class in two weeks due to work (graveyard) and havent had time to talk to prof. powell, I am sure I will get filled in when I return tues. Kenpo_85 said Mariano tiwanak if I remember right. Is that where I should look? In the original/hardline method the great founders came up with/ punch arts/grab arts/knife/club/2-man/3-man/palama/and my all time favorite alphabet techniques I have found more judo than jiu-jitsu. Can somebody tell me where to look? Is there video or books? Or other methods I should look into. Thanks to all.
Duane Navarro "Black belt" under GM Mitch Powell Original Method

Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: How do you jiu-jitsu?
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2009, 12:02:41 PM »
The Jujitsu I learned in Kaju was not like the Jujitsu I have previously studied where the focus was more on locks especially standing.  Then my eyes were opened by the talent of Larry Hartsell who was an encyclopedia of submission and then Rickson Grace who had mastered base and economy of motion while on the ground.  The jujitsu of today if you can find the right teacher is highly advanced.
  So there is no confusion I am not talking about wearing a GI and rolling around for a tap with no thought of the consequence of being hit.....if that makes sense....
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Offline duane navarro

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Re: How do you jiu-jitsu?
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2009, 12:25:28 PM »
Yes Prof. bono that makes perfect sense..... like you say "GT"
Duane Navarro "Black belt" under GM Mitch Powell Original Method

Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: How do you jiu-jitsu?
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2009, 12:27:25 PM »
Yup GT
GM John E Bono DC
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Champions aren't made in the gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them a desire,a dream,a vision

Offline John Bishop

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Re: How do you jiu-jitsu?
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2009, 01:14:48 PM »
I have been trying to lokk up info on the judo/jiu-jitsu side of KAJUKENBO and have been having a hard time finding who first incorperated it into KAJ. I havent been to class in two weeks due to work (graveyard) and havent had time to talk to prof. powell, I am sure I will get filled in when I return tues. Kenpo_85 said Mariano tiwanak if I remember right. Is that where I should look? In the original/hardline method the great founders came up with/ punch arts/grab arts/knife/club/2-man/3-man/palama/and my all time favorite alphabet techniques I have found more judo than jiu-jitsu. Can somebody tell me where to look? Is there video or books? Or other methods I should look into. Thanks to all.

You really can't separate judo from jujitsu.  Judo was basically made up of jujitsu techniques that were deemed safe for sport competition.  Therefore, everything you find in judo, you will find in the jujitsu systems.  But, everything you find in jujitsu, you will not find in judo. 
For the most part, the judo and jujitsu you find in the original method of Kajukenbo was mostly the contribution of Joe Holck.  And to a lesser extent, Frank Ordonez.  Holck was both a black belt in Danzan Ryu jujitsu, and Kodokan judo.  Google Joe Holck, and you'll find a man who has been active in the jujitsu and judo arts for over 60 years. 
Like Prof. Bono said, the original judo/jujitsu techniques in Kajukenbo are stand up techniques meant to take someone down quickly, where the defender could punch, kick, stomp, and knee him. 
You basically see these throws, joint locks, dislocations, and sweeps blended into techniques, where they flow smoothly in combination with other techniques.  So normally they don't look like a traditional judo/jujitsu waza. 
The ground grappling, or defensive grappling you see in many Kajukenbo schools now days is just Kajukenbo innovation.  In other words when some arts are analyzing katas and improving their sword techniques, the Kajukenbo stylist is teaching what is needed to meet the self defense needs of the time you live in.       
« Last Edit: March 28, 2009, 04:00:22 PM by John Bishop »
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Offline duane navarro

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Re: How do you jiu-jitsu?
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2009, 02:53:43 PM »
WOW!!! Ask and you shall recieve. Thanks Prof. bishop...........
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Offline curry

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Re: How do you jiu-jitsu?
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2009, 05:06:58 PM »
on the subject of ju jitsu. can anyone explain the difference between ju jitsu, and wally jay's small circle ju jitsu. only,leon jay has a school over in england not too far from me. i was thinking about attending some classes there, being kajukenbo hasn't reached england yet(at least as far as i know). respects, phil curry
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Offline Wado

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Re: How do you jiu-jitsu?
« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2009, 12:56:11 AM »
on the subject of ju jitsu. can anyone explain the difference between ju jitsu, and wally jay's small circle ju jitsu. only,leon jay has a school over in england not too far from me. i was thinking about attending some classes there, being kajukenbo hasn't reached england yet(at least as far as i know). respects, phil curry


One of the issues I have with describing differences is that often people see only what they are looking for.  For instance, if someone is looking for gracefulness then that is what they see, on the other hand, if they are looking for brutal effectiveness, that is what they see.  People have preconceptions of what they want to see.  People look at Brazilian Jiu-jitsu and have the preconception that it is all ground and sport, with little value in self-defense... so that is what they see in it. 

Before cross-training in BJJ and even today we continue the ground attack training based on C.H.A. 3 Kenpo Karate... we have been changing the name to ground and pound for the MMA folks to understand what it is like, but back when I started Kajukenbo, we called it ground attack... I've also seen it referred to as the "dance of death".  This is our primarily ground training... stun, drop them to the ground or into something hard, and break their joints, stomp the joints, kick the head, rip the eyes, drop the shin, look for weapons, look for witnesses, continue and cover.

I will tell you something in my humble opinion, my cross-training in BJJ has greatly helped me improve my ground attack as has my Aikido training.  From Kajukenbo I learned better flow and how to attack a grounded enemy repeatedly, but for every attack there was still a transition between the attacks... BJJ helped me to better transitions between attacks to a grounded enemy.  You see, when transitions are poor, that is where the enemy can counter and reverse your attacks against you... with good transitions, they don't get the chance to... you take that away from them.

It is no super secret, I think that BJJ just trains how to move really well on the ground and against someone that is on the ground... To paraphrase what Professor Bono stated, "Rickson Gracie who had mastered base and economy of motion while on the ground."  The way I like to put it is that BJJ trains how to gain a superior position and how to keep it.  Many other martial arts teach how to gain a superior position, but have difficulty is training how to keep it... IMHO.

But furthermore, something that comes from combat-sports based training... a concept that exists in all martial arts but isn't always used to full advantage, the concept of progressive resistance (counters).  In Kajukenbo ground training, a majority of the training we do was attacking and learning how to accept the attack... when the enemy (your training partner) is taken down, he protects himself but does not fight back.  If he fights back, well that means hit him better because he isn't done yet.  This is good training and builds good muscle memory so the movements are fluid and instinctive.  It also allows for training with controlled strikes to vital areas. 

However, in MMA training, as you and your training partner progress, so does the resistance they give.  So taking down someone in this environment means they are going to fight you... ground and pound on someone actively fighting back (albeit not full out fighting as this is still a controlled environment for training/learning), it adds a different dynamic than someone that is down and just covering up.  Especially if they are bigger than you.  This is some of what BJJ brings into training.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2009, 01:00:10 AM by Wado »
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