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Sparring

Author Topic: Sparring  (Read 25841 times)

Offline Mitch Powell

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Re: Sparring
« Reply #30 on: September 02, 2007, 02:51:09 AM »
Here's a quote from the Movie "Rocky," that best sums up point fighting, "it's a waste of life!"

The closer you get to the real thing, the more chance you will have of success in a real situation. There is noting real about point fighting.

If I have learned anything in my time in the arts and law enforcement, it's that you better be able to fight in all ranges-stand up striking and grappling, ground striking and grappling, and self defense.

Point fighting may offer a small, small piece of what you need, but people get so into it that they fail to spend the time needed in the other areas to get to where they really need to get as a fighter.

I had a pretty good stand up fighter visit my school a few weeks ago. He boxed the guy he came with and did pretty good. Then he kick boxed another student and kinda beat that guy up. That pissed me off, so I decided he and I needed to workout a bit.

I told him we would do MMA for three one minute rounds. He could do whatever he wanted, but I was going to beat him and I wasn't even going to throw a single punch. He looked at me like I was nuts. He was tall--6'-3" or so and lancky, so I already knew what I was going to do. He bounced around a bit and threw a couple of punches at my head, which I figured he'd do, and then I ducked under his punches and took him to the ground with a double leg take down. After the takedown, I tapped him out with a choke. It took 10 seconds. He had no idea what happened. That was round one.

We started round two. He threw a few punches at my head and then a kick to my leg. I took his kick and took him down. I got the rear mount position and tapped him out with a choke. That took about 8-10 seconds. There was no round three.

I know he felt stupid, because I felt stupid when a grappler did that to me. That's why I took the time to learn grappling and now share what I know with my students. I'm no John Bono, but I've learned the common techniques that work in most situations and how to get out of them.

Now, a few weeks ago, I had a very good wrestler come to train. He won state and California is a big place, so I knew he was going to wipe the mat with me if we went to the ground.

When we touched gloves, I could see his right leg pretty far forward, so I kicked it inward with my right leg and grabbed his neck with my right arm when his head came down. I hung on until he tapped out. He was a big boy and it took about 20 seconds. He did not want to give up and I doubt if he was too used to doing so. We went a second round and I decided to grapple with him instead of strike. After a couple of minutes, he got side mount and showed me why he won state.

While he can grapple with the best of them, he had no striking skills. The technique I used would have taken him out in the street just like it did in the school. He knew that and he joined the class to further develop his striking and self defense skills.

Striking by itself is not enough. Grappling by itself is not enough. That brings me another area and that's self defense. If any of you watched the Human Weapon and the Krav Maga training you know what I mean. Both Jason and Bill are good fighters, but they had no idea about self defense and they both got killed routinely when they were attacked by a person with a blade during the Krav Maga show. They were both surprised, to say the least.

Our techniques in Kajukenbo are designed to give us the self defense knowledge that we need to be successful in the street. Striking and grappling are pieces of the pie, but self defense is just as important.

Most schools, especially Kajukenbo schools were strictly self defense schools when they started, but in the 60s and 70s added sparring. That grew into a huge sport and in some cases took over schools to the point where they no longer trained their techniques. They just sparred. Some schools are still like that.

While winning a trophy is nice, the martial arts is about fighting, so along came the Gracie family to remind everyone of that. After doing so, the MMA fighters emerged with standing and ground skills to take the lead. The next step was just exposed on that Human Weapon show and that is the need for self defense skills to survive actual attacks on the street. If you are an MMA fighter and you think you have all you need to protect yourself, I highly suggest you watch that show.

Protecting ourselves is a complex thing. I hate to see so much time wasted on something like tournament point sparring that is so far from what we really need to practise to stay alive.

We also talk about how we can't do this or we can't do that because we are too old. The bad guy doesn't care how old you are. They just want to beat you down. We need to watch our weight so we don't get too heavy to do the things we need to do. We need to keep our muscles strong, especially our heart through cardio-based training, and we need to throw in a little hair dye every once in a while to keep us feeling youthfull!

Here's a quote from Sigung Rob Peladeau that always inspires me, "Shut up and Train."

 Peace!
« Last Edit: September 02, 2007, 03:04:30 AM by Mitch Powell »
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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Sparring
« Reply #31 on: September 02, 2007, 11:25:24 AM »
Most of my students had never seen point fighting and maybe 4 or 5 years ago I brought them to a big tournament here in northern California to watch one since I was teaching a grappling seminar there. 
That year groined shots were not allowed since it varied every other year.  they didn't under stand why the people jumped around, ran from the ring, dropped there hands or stopped fighting etc.....  I tried to explain it was more about speed timing and fun.  They thought it was like tag and wanted nothing to do with it.  Of course MMA was already ingrained in their minds since we split classes to boxing, kickboxing, grappling, trapping, weapons and then combining them. 

I really never feel I have enough time to train everything and I put in 12 to 20 hours per week, there just isn't enough time in life without doing training as a job to cover everything I want.
 I don't want to waste to much time on things that will build bad habits in my students. 
I work some stuff that I know isn't for fighting, but unless the student is very advanced I would rather see them survive a street fight...

Here's some poorly shot videos examples;

Marco 16 yrs old Pankration match figure 4 arm lock with the legs;
http://youtube.com/watch?v=WXOL5fflvzE


Marco's brother Ivan 15 yrs old fighting a 25 yr old who is also a blue belt, but has been away at college and just got back, they are just boxing here;
http://youtube.com/watch?v=27ZGo9W3t0M


Eddie at 14 yrs old doing leg kicks with an adult.....on our kickboxing night, we condition the legs;
http://youtube.com/watch?v=aVHuco8K7Xw


Another Ivan video this time is a Pankration match from 2 weeks ago.;
http://youtube.com/watch?v=or8z2uefozQ


One you guys have probably seen, Clear Blue is his name he has Cerebral Palsy
http://youtube.com/watch?v=KCXKd6aIGuQ


Then the weapon training we are striving for.......not there yet
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_bGqnK0mFq4
« Last Edit: September 02, 2007, 11:29:43 AM by KajuJKDFighter »
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Offline badsifu

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Re: Sparring
« Reply #32 on: September 02, 2007, 11:34:43 AM »
STewPiD Irnorant Quaestions here:

Why do the majority of Kajukenbo schools condone the participation in point fighting???  Why do we as an art have point fighting as the main event at our flagship event each year and not anything more contact oriented?  Why is it that a lot of Kajukenbo schools just do the "KEN" part but don't have the "JU" or the "BO" part?  Why are we all okay with this?
Dan Tyrrell

Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Sparring
« Reply #33 on: September 02, 2007, 11:46:55 AM »
That's a lot of questions this early......let me think.......hold it let me try again.......ohhhhmmmmm
Here we go...I think point fighting just happened, started as hard bare fisted stuff and then someone bleed to much and here came the pads, then someone complained there kid got hurt and the big time rules, then the teachers realize if the weren't to hard on students they would have many more...
  Then came the "We will make you a Black belt"  you have all seen the huge banners in schools though it says something else....all marketing for the masses, well give those BB's easy get lots of students, make more money......that was Caveman speak....

I think the fear of the ground is just from teachers not progressing and learning therefore their students don't have a chance.  The seminar I mentioned I taught above was takedowns to grappling.  Many people wouldn't participate and some teacher talked smack then left, I called one of them out while he was leaving.

 I stopped teaching and said where are you going?  He said I don't need ground work I don't go down there.  I said what if someone takes you there, or one of you're students.  He said they won't.
  I told him to stay and learn he said no, so I said well then prove you can't be brought to the ground come out here........and another No.  So I wondered what his students that were right there were thinking?
 One snuck back in to train.....and by the way this is a well know guy I'm talking about..
  The flagship question.....well no comment.........
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Champions aren't made in the gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them a desire,a dream,a vision

Offline badsifu

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Re: Sparring
« Reply #34 on: September 02, 2007, 12:06:26 PM »
That's a lot of questions this early......let me think.......hold it let me try again.......ohhhhmmmmm
Here we go...I think point fighting just happened, started as hard bare fisted stuff and then someone bleed to much and here came the pads, then someone complained there kid got hurt and the big time rules, then the teachers realize if the weren't to hard on students they would have many more...
  Then came the "We will make you a Black belt"  you have all seen the huge banners in schools though it says something else....all marketing for the masses, well give those BB's easy get lots of students, make more money......that was Caveman speak....

McDojoism in Kajukenbo?  But I thought everyone was afraid of us...


Quote
I think the fear of the ground is just from teachers not progressing and learning therefore their students don't have a chance.  The seminar I mentioned I taught above was takedowns to grappling.  Many people wouldn't participate and some teacher talked smack then left, I called one of them out while he was leaving.

 I stopped teaching and said where are you going?  He said I don't need ground work I don't go down there.  I said what if someone takes you there, or one of you're students.  He said they won't.
  I told him to stay and learn he said no, so I said well then prove you can't be brought to the ground come out here........and another No.  So I wondered what his students that were right there were thinking?

Eventually, reality will catch up to all of them.   Either they will get owned on the ground or their student will get owned on the ground and then leave.


Quote
  The flagship question.....well no comment.........

Maybe I am just stirring up energy to get the grappling division back at the tournament.  Maybe go for a Pankration theme instead?  More people might take to that thinking that they won't get taken to the ground right?

Dan Tyrrell

Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Sparring
« Reply #35 on: September 02, 2007, 12:13:04 PM »
They  are...

I believe that is true.......

Good point .....that could be true.....but they will be.....
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Offline Wado

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Re: Sparring
« Reply #36 on: September 02, 2007, 12:55:14 PM »
Nice posts.  Here is something my first Karate instructor, Chinen Sensei, said:

Quote
CHINEN SENSEI ON TOURNAMENTS AND COMPETITION

Kumite, as long as it follows tournament rules, is good practice. I encourage people to compete. You pay an entrance fee and spar with total strangers. This gives you an approximation of a street fight. As you do it over and over, you get used to the situation and it toughens you. I used to compete, not just in karate, but also in judo and kendo. I was an excellent loser!

But tournament is okay for kyu-grade holders and young black belts. Too much of it makes you lose the classical flavor, because tournament rules force uniformity on people, and styles and individuality is gone.

Chinen Sensei also told me that before pads were used, there were less injuries to the head and face in tournament. That is not to say they did not hit each other or that injuries did not happen, but to say that control of techniques was emphasized more back then.  But that could be a topic of discussion all its own. 

Back to the quote above. Chinen Sensei started in Judo and also cross-trained in Kendo.  It was not uncommon for a karate person to also cross-train in Judo and Kendo in the Japanese culture.  I don't think there would be nearly as many issues with some when it came to MMA and ground fighting experience if every martial artist had cross training in Judo (or similar art) and Kendo (or similar weapon art).  And why we are at it, add boxing/kickboxing/Muay Thai cross-training in the mix to.   ;)


Personally, when it comes to point fight tournaments, my biggest issues are with the judges.  Some judges call points for techniques that are six inches away from hitting, or call excessive contact on perfectly controlled techniques that barely touch.  That might be good for very young or beginners, if at all, but judging more than the rules is what can take all the meaningful aspects of point fighting out of the game.

If you come from a full contact sparring background, you will probably suck when it comes to point fighting because the techniques would be coming in so fast and even if they don't hit, you might lose the point -- very frustrating.  But watching Chinen Sensei as center judge in point tournaments was completely different.  He did not call a point unless it was a clean technique with power.  If there was some contact all the better.  Any technique that was deflected or too far away did not score and the fight continued.  In fact the last match I saw him officiate, an American Kenpo person won.  It was not the same as real world, but it was a lot closer than what I saw other (much less experienced) judges do.  I wish the whole tournament would have been consistent like how Chinen Sensei officiated. 

« Last Edit: September 02, 2007, 12:59:14 PM by Wado »
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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Sparring
« Reply #37 on: September 02, 2007, 02:30:07 PM »
The biggest problem is we are creatures of what is familiar to us....if we train many hours of something we will do it on the street......if you are a wrestler who has trained in boxing kickboxing and submissions, in a fight when it becomes hard for you or you are afraid you will flip the switch to wrestling......we all do that even very trained people will go with their money maker when the chips are down....threw a little Vegas flair in there for you guys
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Offline Wado

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Re: Sparring
« Reply #38 on: September 02, 2007, 05:15:37 PM »
The biggest problem is we are creatures of what is familiar to us....if we train many hours of something we will do it on the street......if you are a wrestler who has trained in boxing kickboxing and submissions, in a fight when it becomes hard for you or you are afraid you will flip the switch to wrestling......we all do that even very trained people will go with their money maker when the chips are down....threw a little Vegas flair in there for you guys

So true Professor. I like your post Professor Bono, it has meaning on many levels and probably different people can apply it differently for their situations. 

I see it as why I put experience and attitude above skill.  Skill is important but only meaningful truly with experience and attitude to back it up.

Rules such as tournament put limits on things that through experience we have ingrained to be instinctive to us -- making us do things that maybe we shouldn't be doing.  On the other hand if someone only has the experience of tournament, that will be what they fall back on instinctively in other situations. 

Excuse me for getting philosophical on this, but there was a post to a video of a point sparring match earlier in this thread.  Some comments about using circles instead of being so linear, etc... great advice.  Philosophically, linear and circles are a mental concept as much as physical... even more so mental than physical perhaps.  Linear represents strength, in the sense of projecting your strength for a purpose.  Circle represents nothingness, no purpose. 

In the video, the larger fellow charged in a few times.  Sometimes he scored, one time the smaller fellow scored.  However, I saw a completely one-sided fight with the larger fellow dominating the smaller one. Why?  Because he "blitz'ed" in and attacked.  Whether point sparring or MMA or the streets, you need to deal with the "blitz".  The blitz is a demonstration of a superior attitude, the going from "zero to 100% in an instant."  When the bigger fellow charged in, even when the smaller fellow countered for the point, the smaller fellow was off balance and his attack was weak. One, two, ten million hits, the smaller fellow would be wiped, point or full contact.  Not to say the larger fellow would not be hurt, only who would dominate the other.

This is attitude!  This was employed so much by Gracie in the early UFC, shooting in and catching the opponent.... zero to 100% in an instant.

So circle is not moving in circles, it is nothingness, the freeing of the mind, to move in any direction and in any way.  Maximum mobility with minimum movement.

Many beginners spar very linearly, meaning they think if he does this, I do this... or, I will low kick fake then punch him... this is all linear thinking.  Then if their mind goes blank because something unexpected happens, they do nothing, because they don't know what to do, they get overwhelmed and dominated. The superior attitude wins!!!

People will often fall into traps of linear thinking.  Think about how to hit someone, this leaves them open to the shoot and double leg takedown because the mind is occupied with how you are going to attack next. Or think about how to not get taken down so much that it leaves them open to a palm strike to the side of the head or fingers to the eyes.

Sorry for the rant.  I just don't like seeing point sparring getting such a bad rep when the attitude, the dealing with the blitz, the clean technique that hit with power was all part of the training... somehow maybe lost now in many schools.  But I do agree there are better things and you can leave the point sparring out if you like, I only am saying if you do point sparring, try to stay sincere in your training, in the martial sense and you might find value in it.
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Offline Ron Baker

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Re: Sparring
« Reply #39 on: September 02, 2007, 07:21:42 PM »
I won't lie; once upon a time, I lived for tournaments.  But as with most things in life, tournaments changed.  Time was, when you saw a tough and lightning-fast point fighter, you knew he was someone who could buss 'em up on the street if need be.  Not any more. 

A month or so ago, was the Battle of Atlanta--a traditionally large national tournament.  While there, I had a conversation with Bill "Superfoot" Wallace (whom I had met on previous occasion) and we were talking about tournament fighting today, compared to 25 or 30 years ago.   While I can't repeat the expletives, basically his opinion was that it's garbage.  And that the worst garbage comes, unfortunately,  from the black belt divisions.  It got so bad that referrees were having to warn "black belt" competitors that sloppy techniques and games of tag would get no points. 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that in Kajukenbo, we always enjoyed the tournament, but we never forgot that self-defense was our foundation.   And I pity all those Tae kwon do and American Karate "fighters" who couldn't defend themselves if their lives depended on it.
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Offline MARK GERRY

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Re: Sparring
« Reply #40 on: September 03, 2007, 01:59:24 AM »
Posted by: backfist 
Insert Quote
I won't lie; once upon a time, I lived for tournaments.  But as with most things in life, tournaments changed.  Time was, when you saw a tough and lightning-fast point fighter, you knew he was someone who could buss 'em up on the street if need be.  Not any more. 

A month or so ago, was the Battle of Atlanta--a traditionally large national tournament.  While there, I had a conversation with Bill "Superfoot" Wallace (whom I had met on previous occasion) and we were talking about tournament fighting today, compared to 25 or 30 years ago.   While I can't repeat the expletives, basically his opinion was that it's garbage.  And that the worst garbage comes, unfortunately,  from the black belt divisions.  It got so bad that referrees were having to warn "black belt" competitors that sloppy techniques and games of tag would get no points. 
 
 ;).........KIND OF FUNNY........DAMIAN GILBERT OF BITW ( A KAJUKENBO BLACK BELT AND OAKLAND POLICE OFFICER ) WON GRAND CHAMPION......2007 BATTLE OF ATLANTA :)
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do

Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re: Sparring
« Reply #41 on: September 03, 2007, 03:40:48 AM »
Why do the majority of Kajukenbo schools condone the participation in point fighting???  Why do we as an art have point fighting as the main event at our flagship event each year and not anything more contact oriented?  Why is it that a lot of Kajukenbo schools just do the "KEN" part but don't have the "JU" or the "BO" part?  Why are we all okay with this?

I think they're good questions.   How do we even know what the BO part is ?  I think the JU is the throwing and bone breaks rather than fighting on the ground which we see in a lot of types of jujitsu.
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Re: Sparring
« Reply #42 on: September 03, 2007, 04:02:31 AM »

Protecting ourselves is a complex thing. I hate to see so much time wasted on something like tournament point sparring that is so far from what we really need to practise to stay alive.


Excellent treatise on cross-discipline, Prof. Powell .

Only a small % of people that train in "Self-defense" arts really use it.  In relatively rich and safe American society, there is little need for the average person to train in self-defense.  Sure, I enjoy the training.  And aome people really need the training, mostly the LEOs that make our society safe and functional, and , those students that don't have enough money to pay for monthly lessons.  Every now and then, you have a story of someone saving their life or scaring away stalker that grabbed their wrist at the Palo Alto laundromat, and this fuels the entire industry that has earned the McDojo title.  So, who are we kidding about point sparring?  It is just another deballified sport that serves a clientele that pays for the need to feel safe rather than be competent at defending themeselves.

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Offline Ron Baker

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Re: Sparring
« Reply #43 on: September 03, 2007, 06:13:28 AM »
Posted by: backfist 
Insert Quote
I won't lie; once upon a time, I lived for tournaments.  But as with most things in life, tournaments changed.  Time was, when you saw a tough and lightning-fast point fighter, you knew he was someone who could buss 'em up on the street if need be.  Not any more. 

A month or so ago, was the Battle of Atlanta--a traditionally large national tournament.  While there, I had a conversation with Bill "Superfoot" Wallace (whom I had met on previous occasion) and we were talking about tournament fighting today, compared to 25 or 30 years ago.   While I can't repeat the expletives, basically his opinion was that it's garbage.  And that the worst garbage comes, unfortunately,  from the black belt divisions.  It got so bad that referrees were having to warn "black belt" competitors that sloppy techniques and games of tag would get no points. 
 
 ;).........KIND OF FUNNY........DAMIAN GILBERT OF BITW ( A KAJUKENBO BLACK BELT AND OAKLAND POLICE OFFICER ) WON GRAND CHAMPION......2007 BATTLE OF ATLANTA :)
I believe he also won it in 2006, fighting for Team Paul Mitchell.  He's got game.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2007, 06:26:28 AM by backfist »
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Re: Sparring
« Reply #44 on: September 03, 2007, 01:18:05 PM »
I don't think anyone would consider Damian is typical point fighter though..he would be the exception rather then the rule..
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Champions aren't made in the gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them a desire,a dream,a vision