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Kajukenbo Prayer

Author Topic: Kajukenbo Prayer  (Read 46061 times)

Offline Mark Dinkel

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Re: Kajukenbo Prayer
« Reply #60 on: June 22, 2006, 10:51:29 AM »
First, I do not believe in folding. I believe in meeting the consumers needs as is possible. I do not propose that you walk away from your religious beliefs. What I propose is that you let others have theirs as well. And by bringing yours into a public forum, you either tell people who do not subscribe that you do not repsect their right to believe what they want, or you make that forum quasi-public because those who do not believe will stay way, very few will put up with disrespect for too long. Eventually you wind up have a nice small group of like-minded religious thinkers, alienating even further those that do not subscribe to your beliefs. If this is your goal, by all means stay the course.

However, if your goal is to spread the word of kajukenbo, then you more than likely will not be able to attain the highest level of that goal when you keep religion in your art. And I think it is truly sad because your best lifetime student and follower may be someone who believes different than you religiously, but your relationship will never foster and grow because you keep religion tied to your art effectively barring that person from learning from you. It is no different than racial, age, sex or any other discrimination. It appears in some areas only christians can learn kajukenbo. I truly hope this is not a sign of the future. I should stop training in kajukenbo now if that is its future.

The 50% comes from the estimate that more than 50% of the population does not adhere to christian, islam, hindu, jewish or whatever religious thought you adhere to. It is my understanding, no religion has the majority (>50%) of the population. While such conditions may be true in small pockets of our society. In cities and larger metro areas, that clearly is not the case. How many different houses of worship can you count in your community? Can you even count them all since some are more reserved than others? Im guessing you would find it almost impossible to find a Wiccan house of worship or meeting hall.

If you insist on keeping religion in your dojo, you keep your dojo closed to all the members of the other houses of worship as well as those that do not belong to any house of worship. Whether you accept this or not, it is a rare person that will put up with such disrespect on a regular basis, and I suspect that any person in such a situation is not in an ideal learning environment, as a result, they may never reach their full potential. A teacher can be a motivator as well as a demotivator.

I guess I am fortunate, although the prayer is talked about on occassion in the school I currently attend, it is not part of our daily class. As a result, I can learn Kajukenbo without being subjected to and being a part of christian behavior. It is too bad, in my opinion, that people in your area are not as fortunate. They must either accept personal disprespect, walk away temporarily from their own religious beliefs or forgoe kajukenbo training. Pretty sad if you ask me all for the cause of religious beliefs.

It is even sadder since the issue could be resolved by having a moment of silent prayer letting each class member pray as they desire.

On a side note, how many of you really believe the world and human civilization is only about 6000 years old? Shouldn't this, in itself make you suspect of shoving your religious beliefs on others? And irrespective of how you look at it, when you bring your religion into a public forum, you are shoving your beliefs on others. There is a town, I believe in Kentucky, of all states to do such a thing, that assesses an signage fee for churches that have crosses visible to the public, just like a billboard. Kudos I say.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2006, 11:07:51 AM by Mark Dinkel »
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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Kajukenbo Prayer
« Reply #61 on: June 22, 2006, 11:29:01 AM »
  Don't you find it odd that you seem to be the only one that has a problem with such conviction about the prayer, though it's not forced on anyone in most schools.  Once again, you have a choice of schools.  There are more Christians in the US then all other forms of religion combined, over a quarter of a billion, the next closes is Non religious at at 38 million, and as far as religion it's 4 million for Judaism.
    This is from the census board.  Statistically they state that Christianity is higher then 82% of the population ...
  To me this argument would be similar if a student came to my school and said if we didn't speak his language then he wouldn't stay at the school and we give him a choice to learn our language or use sign language but still stay and learn.
     If he can't see around things that bother him so he can learn the art he wants to learn who's loss is it...
Humans adapt to their situation if they have any intelligence at all........
     .........remember "Absorb what is useful. Discard what is not. Add what is uniquely your own"
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Offline Mark Dinkel

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Re: Kajukenbo Prayer
« Reply #62 on: June 22, 2006, 11:40:10 AM »
No I do not find it odd.

I often speak out when others will not. In addition, I think in the beginning of this thread there was a non-kaju MA that stated he would like to train in Kaju but is turned away by the religion tied to his local school.

In addition, I am speaking with the hope of helping the Ohana grow out of the envelope.

Who is at a loss? The Ohana. If it is to be pigeonholed as a christian art, all other non christians will shy away from it. Who is at a loss in this case? The Ohana.

When we discriminate whether it be religious, race, gender, age or whatever the underlying factor, we exclude ourselves from a world of possibilities. I cannot imagine how much farther advanced we would be if women were allowed to be free thinkers and doers in the mideast, or the USA in the 1950s for that matter.

Each individual has something to offer us, I would like to believe. If we let people be themselves and not be disrespectful of each other and our abilities to be free thinkers, the world, in my opinion, would be a much better place.

Besides what are you afraid of, that some muslim or jew might come into your dojo, learn your stuff, take it to his brothers and then beat you up?


LOL 82% of the population is uneducated?
« Last Edit: June 22, 2006, 11:50:38 AM by Mark Dinkel »
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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Kajukenbo Prayer
« Reply #63 on: June 22, 2006, 11:59:28 AM »
Mark you coming to Vegas?  The prayer is usually said there.  I have muslims, Jews and many other religions at my school.....they have no problem.  Maybe it's all your education..Student Black was it????
« Last Edit: June 22, 2006, 12:42:41 PM by KajuJKDFighter »
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Offline John Bishop

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Re: Kajukenbo Prayer
« Reply #64 on: June 22, 2006, 12:37:33 PM »
I think in todays society more and more people are intollerant, and fast to find offense in just about any thing. 
Being founded in a Christian country by Christians, the Kajukenbo prayer is a tradition that is as important as any other tradition in the system.  Just like many Asian martial arts have quiet medatation before and after class.  Some instructors will be upfront and tell you that the meditation is a Buddhist ritual, and some instructors will just say it's quiet time to help clear your mind before and after training.  Most people who want to train in those arts don't give it a second thought.  If they don't believe in Buddhist meditation, they just kneel there quietly thinking about what ever they want.
I'm sure I could be wrong, but I don't know of any Kajukenbo schools that force their students to say the Kajukenbo prayer.  They are usually free to observe a moment of silence, or pray to themselves in their own way.  And there are also schools who like my own, can't recite the prayer in classes because the classes are put on thru govermental agencies.  But our students are aware of the prayer, and know that it will be recited at Kajukenbo events that they will attend. 
As to the growth and spread of Kajukenbo, it's doing fine.  It's not a business with a marketing plan for franchises on every corner. And hopefully never will be.  The systems that have been successful in that area are jokingly referred to as McDojo's because of their total lack of quality and standards.   They water down their training so nobody quits.  Their "black belt programs" with their much reduced cirriculum turn out black belts in 12-18 months.  And then theirs their 8 and 10 year old black belts who have to have their mothers tie their belts for them before class.
The future of Kajukenbo is just fine.  Kajukenbo has and will be taught in commercial schools, YMCA's, community centers, military bases, churches, garages, backyards, and parks.  You won't find a Kajukenbo school on every corner like a 7-11, or in every town like tae kwon do schools.  But at the time of this writing there are known schools and or instructors in America, Spain, Germany, France, Belgium, Sweden, Japan, Thailand, Guam, Canada, Mexico, Guatemala, Kuwait, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Argentina, Honduras, Venezuela, Puerto Rico, Iraq, Switzerland, Monaco, Lebanon, India, England, Poland, Russia, Cape Verde, Greece, Turkey, Yemen, and Italy.  And you'll notice many of those countries are not what you would call Christian societies.     


« Last Edit: June 22, 2006, 12:40:31 PM by John Bishop »
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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Kajukenbo Prayer
« Reply #65 on: June 22, 2006, 12:47:11 PM »
Well said..
There are many McDojo TKD schools in the bay area as we all know, with the 2 yrs to Black programs and 500-1500 student base, some give instruction in Korean, yet they are still very busy....it's all who wants to train where....mass marketing goes along way for those schools.  Hopefully we are always quality over anything else...
GM John E Bono DC
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Champions aren't made in the gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them a desire,a dream,a vision

Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re: Kajukenbo Prayer
« Reply #66 on: June 22, 2006, 05:52:15 PM »
> LOL 82% of the population is uneducated?

Such judgements are sure to make you popular here.  My entire family is Lutheran.

> If you insist on keeping religion in your dojo,

Consider that Kajukenbo is actually a product of Christians.  Obviously, including a Christian prayer didn't sway you
from joining.  The school of my teacher M. Rich Lewis currently includes Christians, Jews, Muslims (Turkey), Hindu, atheist
and agnostic.  As Kajukenbo founder Adriano Emperado is still alive and kicking, I wouldn't expect the prayer issue
would change anytime soon.   

Gints

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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Kajukenbo Prayer
« Reply #67 on: June 22, 2006, 06:09:34 PM »
Gints you say the prayer tonight....just kidding.......
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Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re: Kajukenbo Prayer
« Reply #68 on: June 22, 2006, 06:20:18 PM »
Sigung Bono,

I know the original Kaju prayer well.  Though, I'm quite slow in learning the prayer from the Gaylord Method .
Perhaps it is because I am soooooo, ahem,  uneducated as I'm a Christian.

G
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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Kajukenbo Prayer
« Reply #69 on: June 22, 2006, 06:41:56 PM »
Heathen and your Caveman ways
GM John E Bono DC
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Champions aren't made in the gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them a desire,a dream,a vision

Offline dastars

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Re: Kajukenbo Prayer
« Reply #70 on: June 22, 2006, 07:50:44 PM »
Religion and politics... two things whose power of unity and division are rarely equalled. :)
Geoff Hurd - Student of Professor Walt Andrae (SGM Halbuna) - Augusta, GA

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Offline Kevin Hancey

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Re: Kajukenbo Prayer
« Reply #71 on: August 07, 2008, 01:51:20 AM »
[font=Verdana]No I do not find it odd.
I often speak out when others will not. In addition, I think in the beginning of this thread there was a non-kaju MA that stated he would like to train in Kaju but is turned away by the religion tied to his local school.
In addition, I am speaking with the hope of helping the Ohana grow out of the envelope.
Who is at a loss? The Ohana. If it is to be pigeonholed as a christian art, all other non christians will shy away from it. Who is at a loss in this case? The Ohana.
When we discriminate whether it be religious, race, gender, age or whatever the underlying factor, we exclude ourselves from a world of possibilities. I cannot imagine how much farther advanced we would be if women were allowed to be free thinkers and doers in the mideast, or the USA in the 1950s for that matter. Each individual has something to offer us, I would like to believe. If we let people be themselves and not be disrespectful of each other and our abilities to be free thinkers, the world, in my opinion, would be a much better place.
Besides what are you afraid of, that some muslim or jew might come into your dojo, learn your stuff, take it to his brothers and then beat you up?[/font]


We the members of the kajukenbo family come from a new system founded by tolerance of other styles and faiths . Our founders learned from others and we are taught to do the same .
 And the system rose to be accepted  across the face of the earth  . That is greatness . to say we are lacking  in progressiveness  (pigeonholed) and to learn from others seems a bit of the wall . To want to change us to fit your convince  will be to change some of the root from the tree.

     People have their rights to opinion and faith  and  if they are polite in my class and are constructive students  and respectful of others . Contributing to the learning process they are equal  regardless of the prayer . I am hopeful that by hearing it often enough they are mindful of the intent  to protect self and loved ones  etc . What a great place to come from when considering a  purposes for studying Kajukenbo.
People come to Kaju because of its great purpose and accomplishments and it success for effectiveness . Then complain and want to change it .
I find that example from leaders , the prayer and the wisdom held in kata , rich in tradition is irreplaceable to thwarting of bullies being taught in karate classes . Punching and hitting to destroy some one alone is not a peaceful teaching tool.
It would be nice for teachers to be understanding of peoples needs and strong enough to stand tall for what they believe .
I tell my student when they leave class to remember who they are and what they stand for .
 
Code: [Select]
[font=Verdana][/font]Thanks Kevin
« Last Edit: August 07, 2008, 11:06:49 AM by Kevin Hancey »
REMEMBER WHO YOU ARE AND WHAT YOU STAND FOR

Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Kajukenbo Prayer
« Reply #72 on: August 07, 2008, 11:15:13 AM »
We have jewish students at my school and they say the parts of the prayer that apply to them and they say some thing else during the other parts that don't.  It's an easy solution that they came up with, I told them they didn't have to say it if they didn't want to but they adapted and made it their own....
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Champions aren't made in the gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them a desire,a dream,a vision

Offline Dean Goldade

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Re: Kajukenbo Prayer
« Reply #73 on: August 07, 2008, 06:23:54 PM »
We have jewish students at my school and they say the parts of the prayer that apply to them and they say some thing else during the other parts that don't.  It's an easy solution that they came up with, I told them they didn't have to say it if they didn't want to but they adapted and made it their own....

I have Jewish, Christian and many other religions in my school... I even have a Wiccan. I tell them the prayer is tradition, and that regardless of beliefs they outline and state our reasons for training. Much like the Dojo Kun said in many schools.

If they have a problem saying certain parts of the prayer I tell them not to say it.. If they don't want to do it at all, I don't make them. I do make all kneel and bow as I say the prayer to start the class.. What they say is up to them. If that is too much to ask then they can move on.

Sometimes I catch poop as being not traditional enough... But I think sometimes I am more traditional than most... Except for the horse stances...  ;)

Say the prayer. It is our tradition.

Just my 2.5 pennies.

Dean.
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Offline kajukine2

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Re: Kajukenbo Prayer
« Reply #74 on: August 09, 2008, 01:13:41 PM »
We no longer say the prayer in mass, haven't for many years, but I say the prayer EVERY TIME I put my belt on, when students ask what I am doing I tell them, The prayer is posted for all to see and before class starts we go to silent prayer position...prayer is a personal choice
just my $0.2 worth
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