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Professor Walter L. N. Godin-Chinese Kempo Karate

Author Topic: Professor Walter L. N. Godin-Chinese Kempo Karate  (Read 51852 times)

Offline Mitch Powell

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Re:Professor Walter L. N. Godin-Chinese Kempo Karate
« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2003, 01:26:47 PM »
Professor Scott,
That's the thing about the picture, you can't tell what belt is being awarded. Perhaps it's not a black belt and it's a lower belt.

Have you seen the picture? Perhaps by looking at it you can identify some clues. I know there is an American flag in it. The picture is at home ,so I don't have it to look at. I believe there were 48 stars on the flag, so that can help with the date.

When trying to identify the date of the photo, something that may also help is that there are about 7 or 8 black belts sitting along side Sijo, but  only Sijo, Mariano Tiwanak and Frank Ordonez are wearing black gi's.

Peter Choo is also in the picture in the front line with Sijo but he is wearing a white gi. What was the date when all black belts began to wear black gi's? Because this is before that time.

Also, when did Tiwanak leave the school? I thought it was around 1957 or 58. If that's the case, then the photo would be from that time frame. Unless, Tiwanak would have returned for a promotion? Then it could have been later.

I hope you can shed some light on this. As far as what Godin accomplished, no one can take that away from him. It would be great if we were all taught by the enlightened monk who has skills far superior than anyone else, but the truth is we all know guys from the street that can beat that monk to death!

Powell's MMA Academy (KSDI#549)
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Ram

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Re:Professor Walter L. N. Godin-Chinese Kempo Karate
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2003, 05:42:10 AM »
Is it true that Professor Godin was part of the chuan fa branch of kajukenbo? If so, did Joe Emperado have a part in the creation of that branch or did Professor Godin just use the name because of the gung fu styles that he added in himself?

Offline John Bishop

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Re:Professor Walter L. N. Godin-Chinese Kempo Karate
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2003, 09:53:10 AM »
I'm not sure about Prof. Godin's involvement, (if any) with the Chuan Fa branch.  The Chuan Fa branch came about years after Joe Emperado's death.  The people involved in the development of Chuan Fa were Sijo Emperado, Grandmaster Al Delacruz, and Grandmaster Al Dacascos.
Prof. Godin was involved in the Kajukenbo Original Method, Karazempo Goshin Jitsu, and Godin's Chinese Kempo.  Contrary to what has been written by some, Prof. Godin did not start the Universal Kempo system.  Universal Kempo was developed by his student, Prof. Martin Buell.
John Bishop  8th Degree-Original Method 
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"You watch, once I'm gone, all the snakes will start popping their heads up!"  Sijo Emperado

Karazenpo

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Re:Professor Walter L. N. Godin-Chinese Kempo Karate
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2003, 11:22:51 AM »
   I believe too much emphasis is put on ranking these days. What is more important is whether or not one is studying a useful combat orientated system from a practical instructor. Does it really matter what these early Kajukenbo pioneers were wearing around their waists at the inception of their art? Any one of these men in question brought more reality and real-life street experience into their training and teachings in their early years then Gichen Funakoshi did in his entire lifetime. Nothing against Funakoshi, but let's face it, he was a school teacher who never got in a real fight in his life unless you want to count the 'whooping' he allegedly got from Choki Motobu. The Okinawan government awarded him a 5th dan which at that time was considered the 'pinnacle' of karate and what exactly was the government's qualifications to do so, outside of 'politics'? Besides, all his teachings were in theory only, he had no real world experience, yet, some traditionalists use him as a measuring stick to pass judgement on others. If your butt was on the line and you needed a back up, hypothetically now, would you want Walter Godin, when he was a blue belt or Gichen Funakoshi when he was a 5th dan? I don't think I have to tell you who I would have rather had on my side. Remember, martial arts is just that-MARTIAL, it was born on the battlefield as a means of survival in hand to hand combat. Our Kajukenbo forefathers taught it the same way as it was originally intended to be taught. Not for tournament, not for 'artful' purposes but pure human survival and imho, that's the bottom line! ;)  Respectfully, Shihan Joe
« Last Edit: July 24, 2003, 11:44:49 AM by Shihan Joe Shuras »

Offline Kenmpoka

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Re:Professor Walter L. N. Godin-Chinese Kempo Karate
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2003, 12:51:25 PM »
Brother Joe,

It is not the rank issue. It is the lies and exaggerations that were told to the people. I am not speaking in particular about any one person. People in their biographies write tales about their early training and sacrifices.

You always bring up Funakoshi as an example. Just because tales were not written about them, it does not mean they were bunch of sissys running around Kiaiing.
What Funakoshi accomplished can not be compared to any case that suits us!
 
If and I mean "IF", MR. Gascon and Godin were not black belts of Sijo, then they have been lying to all of us. I don't care if they could/can whoop a.s.s, they still did a disservice to their followers. You and I have talked about this before. Some of the early pioneers try to paint a bigger picture than life about their training, accomplishments and adventures.
If you or I did the same today with 30 years of verifiable experience behind each of us, we'll be laughed at by our peers.

Salute,
Peter Teymouraz
Martial Arts Institute
http://community.webtv.net/pteymouraz

Offline John Bishop

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Re:Professor Walter L. N. Godin-Chinese Kempo Karate
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2003, 01:20:09 PM »
Again, we're trying to judge people of the 50s and 60s by todays standards.
Many of the instructors of the 50s and 60s, in many differant styles started teaching before they were black belts.  It was a very common practice throughout the martial arts.  There just weren't enough black belts to fill the teaching demands.  
Look at Brazilian jujitsu in the U.S. 10 years ago.  There were only a few actual BJJ black belts in the U.S., so you had color belts opening schools and teaching.  
The early Hawaiian instructors came to the mainland looking for jobs.  They found jobs and they also opened karate schools.  In 1956, California only had 2 karate schools in the whole state (Parker's and Oshima's), and the Chinese wouldn't teach kung fu to any non-Chinese.  So people were happy to take karate lessons from a color belt.  The students grew with the instructors.  
So if someone started teaching as a color belt in 1959, and claims to have been a instructor since 1959, why would that be considered a lie?   ???
Walter Godin and Victor Gascon were both black belts, and probably did start schools when they were only color belts.  
Also, in the early years of Kajukenbo all black belts were awarded by Sijo Emperado, even though you may have trained under another instructor.  SGM Halbuna trained under Benny Mediro, but received his black belt from Sijo.  Victor Gascon trained under John Leoning, but received his black belt from Sijo.  Thats the way it was done then.  Some systems still do it that way with black belt promotions only coming from headquarters.  
John Bishop  8th Degree-Original Method 
Under Grandmaster Gary Forbach
K.S.D.I. # 478, FMAA


"You watch, once I'm gone, all the snakes will start popping their heads up!"  Sijo Emperado

Greg Harper

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Re:Professor Walter L. N. Godin-Chinese Kempo Karate
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2003, 01:34:00 PM »
 8)
Im not sure what is in question here ???
it has been said that you can tell an instuctors quality by his students.
John Hackleman is under Walter Godin,
and currently WKA north american Champion & ranked at #5 in the world (kickboxing)
with a record of 58-6 & 42 KNOCKOUTS
and you may of heard of one of his students,
the iceman or Chuck Liddell (UFC Champion)
Mr. Hackleman is a member of this site but as he keeps busy with attending full contact events (UFC) as well as supporting the fighter that are working the way up the ladder, he may not have seen this letter of intrest in his teacher.
if you would like i will get ahold of him so he can respond.
PS
if you were at the K.S.D.I. event in Las Vegas in July you could have seen both of these names on the Kajukenbo Family Tree.
 8)
GregHarper

Karazenpo

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Re:Professor Walter L. N. Godin-Chinese Kempo Karate
« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2003, 02:57:39 PM »
Brother Peter, I have discovered all martial arts history of all systems have inaccuracies, embellishments and a few tall tales. Let's take Choki Motobu who defeated the "Russian boxing Champion". He was a "carnival boxer" and there is not even a record of his name, not to mention there are several different accounts of the fight with no one on the same page. Remember that karate promotional poster or flyer, whatever, that showed Funakoshi's picture in place of Motobu's posing in the high/middle guard from Heian 2 stating he was the one who beat the so-called Russian boxing champion? Maybe Funakoshi didn't have anything to do with it but he certainly didn't do anything to correct it either. ;)  How about Peter Urban's book that listed Motobu as a giant of  over 7 feet tall. He was 5' 4". The accounts of Mas Oyama killing over fifty fierce bulls was totally embellished and exagerated. We have legendary Bando kickboxing legend Dr. Maung Gyi that fabricated a complete military history making him a decorated war hero. Didn't Ed Parker state Professor Chow learned Kung Fu from his father yet no one can authenticate that his father practiced at all. Some say he was a Buddhist monk, yet could marry? We have the claims of Frank Dux & John Keehan (Count Dante), all former traditional martial artists. The list goes on. It's the martial arts! As far as Professors Gascon & Godin, they are both on Sijo Emperado's Official Kajukenbo Family Tree which would have to mean he recognized and awarded them black belts. As far as there rank in those early years I agree with Sigung Bishop, it does seem to make sense and one thing you have to admit, these men have given us systems that are still being practiced around the world today, 5 decades later! ;)
                                         Respectfully, Brother Joe

Offline Kenmpoka

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Re:Professor Walter L. N. Godin-Chinese Kempo Karate
« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2003, 03:14:53 PM »
Professor Scott,

I only mentioned Sijo Gascon because his black belt and training was refuted as well a couple of years back. I am aware of the accomplishments of Gm. Godin and his consecutive ranks by Professor Chow.

My point is that by the time these Gentlemen moved to the mainland, Kajukenbo had an established curriculum and ranking system. In their biographies it has been said that they received their BB ranks directly or indirectly from Sijo Emperado and that they were black belts when started Karazempo shortly after they arrived in California. I am just stating what has been written about these pioneers.

If I claim to be BB now when I have only gone through blue belt training and this fact comes up 20 years from now, was I right to have claimed I was a black belt in 2003 or not?

I am just trying to make a point. Not in the case of these Gentlemen only, but in general.

Gm. Godin's accomplishments stand on their own and no one can refute that.

Respectfully,
Peter Teymouraz
Martial Arts Institute
http://community.webtv.net/pteymouraz

Offline Kenmpoka

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Re:Professor Walter L. N. Godin-Chinese Kempo Karate
« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2003, 03:24:19 PM »
Brother Joe,

We are not on the same page. I agree with much of what you say, but that is not the point I am trying to make. If Professor Chow did not learn from his father (by the way I don't believe this tale, I'll be the first to tell you), it was told to Ed Parker by himself or the Seniors of EP and that is the exact point I am trying to make. The end does not justify the means...

Respectfully,
Peter Teymouraz
Martial Arts Institute
http://community.webtv.net/pteymouraz

Offline Kenmpoka

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Re:Professor Walter L. N. Godin-Chinese Kempo Karate
« Reply #25 on: July 24, 2003, 03:48:11 PM »
Aloha Kenmpoka,

I understand and respect your point of view.

Mahalo,

Gerry Scott

Thank you Mr. Scott.
"Time will either promote you or expose you"

Respectfully,
Peter Teymouraz
Martial Arts Institute
http://community.webtv.net/pteymouraz

Offline John Bishop

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Re:Professor Walter L. N. Godin-Chinese Kempo Karate
« Reply #26 on: July 24, 2003, 03:54:20 PM »
Looks like it's really important to hang on to your black belt certificates ;)
John Bishop  8th Degree-Original Method 
Under Grandmaster Gary Forbach
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"You watch, once I'm gone, all the snakes will start popping their heads up!"  Sijo Emperado

Karazenpo

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Re:Professor Walter L. N. Godin-Chinese Kempo Karate
« Reply #27 on: July 25, 2003, 12:15:59 PM »
  Good point, I've kept all my certificates from every promotion I ever had including orange belt (there were no yellow belt rank when I was studying back then). Peter, I do understand what you're saying but my point being it's just the way it is. It's not a matter of right or wrong and no matter what the truth is......the bottom line is that the "end" was successful! :D  because guys like you and I, Sigung Bishop, Professor Scott, etc. wouldn't be having this discussion today! We've all benefited from these men and whether or not history was distorted, it's really no crime, I found it to be just the human condition.
   Example, is the late McNairy County Tennessee Sheriff Buford Pusser of the "Walking Tall" movies. Hollywood took some 'liberties' in producing those movies and there were inaccuracies and time line distortions. However, my research concluded that he was essentially a one man blitz against organized crime who made supreme sacrifices in his enforcement of the law. Was he perfect, no, did he walk outside the law to enforce it, hell yeah! but if a "goody two shoes" left wing libertarian was in his position these thugs would have walked all over him and their descendants would probably be operating there today. W.R. Morris who wrote his biography stated and this is a direct quote: " I have studied the man and have seen both the good and the bad, without question, Buford Pusser is genuine--a rare commodity among men." Sometimes the end does justify the means. In our case we have all done well by our lineage. I went through this while investigating the history of James M. Mitose, there were many inaccuracies passed around over the years but the man, in all due respect to his family, was no saint either, but again if not for him and 'Kosho Ryu' we wouldn't be having this discussion now. I say, so be it, there are skeletons in many closets, who cares as long as it doesn't have a negative impact on us! ;)  Respectfully & Always your friend, Brother Joe :)
« Last Edit: July 25, 2003, 12:20:24 PM by Shihan Joe Shuras »

Karazenpo

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Re:Professor Walter L. N. Godin-Chinese Kempo Karate
« Reply #28 on: July 25, 2003, 12:45:50 PM »
I would like to make one other point. To take a 'line' from the military, "rank is something you wear, respect is something you earn." Too much emphasis is put on the piece of cloth around someone's waist and not enough on the man or woman themself. I have no trouble accepting the forefathers of our lineage that got us where we all are today. They evidently did something right and over the years Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu has gotten my butt out of other wise no win scenerios. Whether someone down my lineage wasn't a "black belt" during the inception of his system decades ago does not reflect at all on what I wear today and if some feel it does then let me give up the belt and see what happens. Will I lose all the knowledge and abitilites that I have acquired over all these years? If take a white belt will everything mystically drain from my body and mind? See my point? Respectfully, Shihan Joe

Greg Harper

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Re:Professor Walter L. N. Godin-Chinese Kempo Karate
« Reply #29 on: July 25, 2003, 01:33:14 PM »
 8)
I agree with you Shihan Joe.
one of the things we say in our class is-
(you just never know)
when you are at a seminar you may see many thing's from many people that you would never expect to see them do.
I know for a fact that I have.
but when you are on the street or in a retaurant or a
movie theater. no one is wearing a belt or carrying around a cetrtifcate.
the only thing that will matter is if you underestimate your enemy.  
I for one do not wear my belt in class, I only wear it at events as Sijo tells me to.
I do respect Rank but I think most americans look at it too much.
If your teacher is a warrior you will know,
on the Rank is something you wear comment,
i once had a student that was worried that i would lose respect for him as his training was dropping off.
my response to him was i can't lose something i do not have,
this student had only been with me 6 months & i explained that you have to earn respect befor you can lose it.
Train stong to remain strong
 8)
Aloha
Greg Harper