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Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms

Author Topic: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms  (Read 41199 times)

Offline GEORGE LIM

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #30 on: February 20, 2010, 09:33:53 AM »
I agree with alot of you and I disagree with alot of you. But I do know that this is a very good discussion that can lead to the improvement of our leadership & teaching.

I teach kata and the traditional technical material from my lineage of Professor Marino Tiwanak CHA-3 but evolved alot of my modern teaching from GM Xizu Abad. I kept the old and added the new for the better of the art and fighting. I believe in the combination of both and apply it to my teaching.

Kata is technical material to learn & practice and how it was taught to me. It is tradition and I hold that for me & my students. Like our traditional schooling, high school & college, you have to learn and do the work to graduate with a diploma. But a degree in business does not make you a good business man and can operate a successful buisness. A person that has no traditional education can have a difficult time attaining higher paid positions.
This is my reasoning for doing & teaching both kata & fighting skills.

Fighting skills to me are survival skills from one on one street fight to multiple attackers. If you want to use them to compete in MMA fights good. If you want to use them for point fighting good. For me, I am not that good so I use them to protect my family & me at all cost including firearm training.

Kata training helps my technical skills and gives me balance & focus. But so does fighting.
Kata gives me a good fitness workout but so does fighting & sparring. I do Gun kata too to help with my breathing & technical skills in firearms.

I see fighters, from UFC, MMA, Cage, Boxers, Muay Thai, doing drills and bag work by themselves. This is their Kata. Even Bruce Lee did Kata but called it something else.

Call it what you will. Do whateva you want to train & teach. But it is all good and you should do it for "real"  with passion & leadership for yourself and your students.

Thank you for allowing me to be involved in this very good conversation about something we ALL love, cherish, & are passionate about. Sijo would love to see all of this methods & styles of teaching & training

Respectfullty,
George Lim
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Grandmaster. Hawaii Kenpo, Kajukenbo

Offline Ghost Rider

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #31 on: February 20, 2010, 11:23:01 AM »
I could not find the post you spoke about.
but to tell the truth I was not seeking an answer for myself.
I know what I was told by Sijo and a few other Grandmasters.
I was asking to see if some of the people that are posting here have heard what I have.
history is a funny thing if you dig into it.
history is what we are told by someone who has written it down.
most of the time those who write it down were never there.
Harper
« Last Edit: February 20, 2010, 11:53:39 AM by Ghost Rider »
Greg Harper
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Offline grand master hemenes

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #32 on: February 20, 2010, 12:44:58 PM »
i dont understand so your saying sijo said dont teach forms?? and i think theres not to many left that were there from the start of kajukenbo.

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Offline grand master hemenes

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #33 on: February 20, 2010, 02:01:04 PM »
this was just emailed to me it says it all.


"On 12-17-2007 at 13:55hrs, Sijo read his revised Board of Advisors list and the orders that he told me (Sigung Aiau Koa) to write, after Sijo read it, he told me to read it out loud to him, when I was done he said “yes” that is what I want. At that time he said where’s the pen so he could sign the paper.
at 14:26hrs Sijo signed his revised list of his Board of Advisors.
 
We talk about his words on being creative in Kajukenbo. Sijo said “be creative, but don’t forget the roots of Kajukenbo and where Kajukenbo came from“.
Sijo told me that to help keep his art and memory alive, he directed me to tell the (BOA) that every  (KSDI) members must know Palama 1,2 and 3 because that is the roots.  also to make sure that the Self-Defense Division grows stronger because Kajukenbo is Self-Defense first.  Also to use the word Palama in katas.
 
I ask Sijo if he could have anything he wanted in Kajukenbo what would he want?
He said “ PEACE with everybody in Kajukenbo that is what going to make me really HAPPY”.
I told him, I will try my best to do my part.
 
Sijo looks real tired and his chest sounds congested, but he told me to come back tomorrow and bring some food because he is hungry. I said ok Sijo I then Kiss him on his head and Sijo Saluted me and I did the same Back, then I said Bye. I then left Sijo to sleep @ 1613hrs."
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Offline Ghost Rider

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #34 on: February 20, 2010, 02:52:10 PM »
Professor Hemenes,
That’s not what I said.
I did not say that Sijo said not to teach the forms.
And I did not say not to teach the forms.
I only said that I do not teach the forms to adults unless they ask me to.
I am just asking a question about the history of Kajukenbo forms.
Like many of you have said it is nice to have a place where we can talk about these things.
This is only the tip of the ice berg.
We say that we must teach the forms to keep our roots and (history) alive.
So why do we change the original forms as taught by Emperado to what fits us personally.
Everyone who is not doing forms the original Emperado way is just changing history.
If we keep changing history then how will we know the real history?
(HIS- STORY)
I think this is a very good topic.
And the reason I am writing about it is to get us all dialed in as to what we are doing now, and in the future.
After I get an answer to my question I will tell you what Sijo said to me.
But in saying that, remember that Sijo often changed his mind on things.
That is exactly why my certificates say
(Sijo’s revised techniques)
Lets all work together for the future of our art.
Unity is the key

Harper
PS
Professor Hemenes your last post did not answer my question.
it was a statement made in 2007
« Last Edit: February 20, 2010, 02:55:26 PM by Ghost Rider »
Greg Harper
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Offline grand master hemenes

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #35 on: February 20, 2010, 03:18:01 PM »
mr harper whats the question again so its clear to me so i can give you the right answer
if i can.

                                        thanks prof.hemenes
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Offline Mitch Powell

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #36 on: February 20, 2010, 04:08:34 PM »
Greetings,
I had teachers like GM Shin and GM Bautista who were very good at forms and enjoyed doing them, so because they enjoyed forms training I learned to enjoy it. I still practice my Palama Sets often. When I do, I think of them and Sijo. The forms are my link to the past. Since I like forms, I have done a lot of research over the years trying to understand what forms are, why we have them, and what influence the forms of the past have had on Kajukenbo. Here's a bit of what I've learned:

In the early days of martial arts forms for the most part were your art. The different teachers preserved and developed their art through forms. The forms taught stances, body positions, balance, timing, spatial relationship, developed power, and so forth. But most importantly, the forms contained the different offensive and defensive techniques in their "Families" art. Yes, the "secret techniques" were hidden in the forms. Sometimes the movements were disguised so others could not figure out wat they were doing.

Forms were also developed for specific reasons. A tiger form was created to develop your strength, a crane form for balance and so forth. There was a purpose for each form and forms were often taught in a certain sequence. Once a student mastered a certain form they would then move to the next level of training or the next form. There were no belts, just more to learn and perfect.

Many things over the years have caused great confusion when it comes to forms training. The primary problem stems from people teaching forms to others without teaching what the movements and techniques in the forms are used for or what we call the applications. There are many, many reasons for that so I?ll just mention a few:
?   Students who failed to complete all their training
?   Students who left one family and began training with another
?   Masters who didn?t like or trust a student, so they never taught the applications

As the modern martial arts era developed almost all of the styles that evolved used forms that were originally part of a Chinese or Okinawa system or family art. The problem with that has been the lack of knowledge regarding the applications in the forms. For the most part, that information was never handed down from master to student. What was handed down was a requirement that the student make the form look really good. Then with the advent of karate tournaments, forms really took a hit. In order to get the best score, kata competitors would modify the forms and in doing so changed not only the form but the applications or what the movement was originally used for.  

When Kajukenbo was developed martial arts systems had forms, so Sijo added forms to Kajukenbo. It?s that simple. The forms that were available at the time were the traditional hard line Okinawa and Japanese forms and the softer Chinese forms. Sijo added a little of both. Sometimes he just took a form that everyone knew like the Okinawa form Nai Han Chi (The dance of death) and modified it to meet Kajukenbo?s needs. Other times he used Chinese forms or even chi kung movements like the beginning of Palama Sets 2 and 3 where you punch downward from a horse stance and then draw your fists back up to your chest and strike out?that?s a popular chi kung movement.

The true applications of the movements in most traditional forms are no longer known and really haven?t been for a few hundred years. I think that?s a safe assessment of the forms in Kajukenbo as well. While some of us may understand the movements better than others, I do not believe all of the applications will ever really be known. Heck, I know some teachers who don?t care what the applications are. They just want the student to do the form correctly with intensity and focus.

Personally, I think forms training helps a lot with balance, range of motion, and the flow from one movement to another in regards to self defense. I don't think forms training offers anything in regards to ring-based fighting. With so many schools focusing on developing ring fighters, it only makes sense that forms training would disappear from their curriculums. They need the time to work on other things.  
 
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allen73

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #37 on: February 20, 2010, 04:51:36 PM »
GM Harper,

Here is the reply that GM Powell posted. I know it's not the answer to the question you posted, but I thought it would give some insight on the Palamas.Mahalo

Palama Set 1:
Just a collection of basic Kajukenbo movements: short outward, downward, short inward, X block, side cover, punch, elbow, short outward, hammer fist groin. Some schools do a side to side cross over in the middle and an ear strike at the end, but those movements were not in the original form from what I was told.

Palama Sets 2 and 3:
These are clearly from the same mold. The double punch downward and counter double strike upward from the horse stance that starts these forms is depicted in Chi Kung exercises. I have also seen these movements, along with the long inward, front ball kick, counter chop combination performed in choy li fut. This is not surprising when one learns Sijo choy li fut connection.

Palama Set 4:
This form was created by Joe Emperado. I do it as a two-man defense. Probably not what Joe Emperado was thinking, but it works great.

Palama Set 5 and 6:
These are the same forms with open hands on one and closed or one closed and one open on the other. The open hand form contains many movements that resemble choy li fut.

Palama 7:
This form was created by Joe Emperado, but never finished. Since Joe Emperado was murdered in 1958, that should tell you how many Kajukenbo forms were developed by 1958. Sijo was still putting the pieces together.

Palama 8:
This is the kicking form. It just contains the basic kicks from Kajukenbo: side, front, back, jumping switch kick, jumping front kick.

Palama 9:
This is the Okinawan form pinan shodan. We just gave it a Kajukenbo flavor.

Palama 10:
This is a combination of 3, 8, 9, 14 and so forth. Just more with Kajukenbo like movements put together.

Palama 11:
This is the Okinawan form naihanchi done with a Kajukenbo flavor. Researches will tell you that this is one of the keys to Mitose’s teaching. Naihanchi dates back as one of the earliest forms adopted by the Okinawans. The Okinawan taught naihanchi 1-3 as the first forms in their system. In 1902, Anko Itosu created pinans 1-5 from the Chinese form “channan.” He then began to teach the pinan forms in the school systems. They caught on and became a mainstay of the Japanese systems. That means if you were trained in a Japanese style after about 1910 you were most likely going to be taught pinan 1-5----Not naihanchi.

Although the Okinawan styles later adopted the pinan forms, many of the old school Okinawan styles or those Okinawans who had already left Japan taught naihanchi as their first form-as Mitose did.

Palama 12:
This form is the form most like bassai dai.

Palama 13:
This is the Okinawan form pinan nidan (pinan shodan in the Japanese system) with a Kajukenbo flavor. The hands strike neck high at the end versus waist high in the Okinawan version.

Palama 14:
This is the clock dance. It contains the most common Kajukenbo movements: horse stances showing the angles of attack and defense (Mitose), upward, outward and inward blocks, front kicks (both sides) horse stance with upward, outward and inward blocks while kicking, and two-handed strikes with counters.

Okinawan arts influenced Kajukenbo as well as choy li fut. Sijo was named National Advisor of choy li fut in 1962 by Chinese Grandmaster Ho Ngua (spelled Ho Ga on many sites). That is a great honor, especially considering Sijo is not Chinese. In 1962 that really meant something. Sijo trained with the Chinese masters and their influence can be found in the techniques as well as forms, especially the later development of Kajukenbo with Ch'uan fa.

When Sijo began teaching he was still developing Kajukenbo. The students who were there were not all taught the same thing the same way. He was very creative and still is. He could create a new art from his wheelchair this afternoon. The man is brilliant. Back to the students, when Sijo was teaching at one school Joe Emperado, Marino Tiwanak, Paulie Seronio, Aleju Reyes and others were teaching at the other schools. We all have flavors and depending on who teaches you the most or what way you feel best doing your forms or techniques, that’s how you learn it.

By the way, the word "pinan" that Sijo used for his forms-it's an Okinawan word. The Japanese word is heian. I think the little things can tell us a lot about where things came from.

handsofstone23

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #38 on: February 20, 2010, 08:23:05 PM »
I think its good to change forms (palamas). Change is good and without it there would be no kaju. Sijo took kenpo and changed it and yes it changed history which is a good thing. I've seen some of GM Lims students perform the tiger and crane form and it is slightly different from the way I do it, which it awsome in my opinion because its their flavor and my flavor. But either way it doesn't take away from the benifits of what forms can bring to the table. I can't really see however what it takes away. I've read several people refer to forms competators as unable to fight. I highly doubt that that's the reason they can't fight. Its probably because they CAN'T fight, not because they DO forms.

Offline Ghost Rider

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #39 on: February 20, 2010, 08:44:41 PM »

When Kajukenbo was developed martial arts systems had forms, so Sijo added forms to Kajukenbo. It’s that simple.
********************************************************

 That’s what I was looking for.
And what I heard also.
Thank you Grandmaster Powell.
Sijo told me that if he did not put forms in Kajukenbo that it would not be recognized as a  martial art system by others.
If not for that he would not have added them in
So that is why we have forms.
Not because Sijo liked them.
Sijo told me to teach the forms to the children.
And just make sure the adults have the first 3, other than that there is no need for forms.
We can all follow what we feel is right, I am just doing what the founder told me to do.
I will not try to explain his reasons to you as only he could do that properly.
I can not speak for him.
I can only tell you what he told me personally.
The thing is that you did not know that how I teach is exactly how Sijo Adriano D, Emperado told me to teach.
So now to the future, is this a subject we can talk about at the Kajukenbo unity meeting?

I wish you all the best

Greg Harper
Sijo’s revised techniques
 
Greg Harper
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handsofstone23

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #40 on: February 20, 2010, 08:50:11 PM »
I'm glad that Sijo said that. I think they serve a great purpose and so did Brother Abe, the lineage I fall under. I'm not trying to say for anyone to change what they do or believe, simply stating that they do serve a purpose that in benificial.

Offline Patrick Campbell

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #41 on: February 20, 2010, 08:58:20 PM »
Thanks, GM Harper.

Pat
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Offline grand master hemenes

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #42 on: February 20, 2010, 09:13:41 PM »
mr harper if sijo said that thats great but everybody has there own way of teaching and thats fine i dont think theres two many kajukenbo schools out there that will give a student a 1st degree black belt knowing only three forms!

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Offline Ghost Rider

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #43 on: February 20, 2010, 09:21:28 PM »
(I'm glad that Sijo said that. I think they serve a great purpose)
 
Ruben I don't see anywhere in my post where I said Sijo thought Forms served a great purpose.
thats fine if that is what you took from it but that is not what I said.
my point was that if it was up to Sijo he would have left them out.
funny how you can say or write someting and everybody can take a diffferent meaning from it.
I can't add anymore to this subject, so I will leave it in the hands of each of you.

Harper
« Last Edit: February 20, 2010, 09:29:13 PM by Ghost Rider »
Greg Harper
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Offline Ghost Rider

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #44 on: February 20, 2010, 09:24:41 PM »
Professor Hemenes so what should I do?
listen to others now that Sijo is gone or listen to what he told me.
you say that if thats what Sijo said then thats fine but then turn around and question it.

Mr. Harper
Greg Harper
senior instructor, Gumataotao Kajukenbo
Head instructor, Kajupit MMA
Sijo Emperado's personal body guard