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Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms

Author Topic: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms  (Read 41607 times)

Offline grand master hemenes

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2010, 03:27:04 PM »
this is the way i ran my classes for thirty years and i never changed these days
mon-tues froms grab arts ect. wed-thr sparing fri. open night  sat open class some students that did not want to spar and they just wanted to do forms they could come on those nights and i had students that did not want to do forms all they wanted was to spar so they only came on those nights but they had option of what day they wanted. and most of my students came to all the classes and i had over 400 students at the time. and i have to agree with harper on one point a lot of top kata people cant fight at all its funny to see them try. and i use to get mad when they would be out there judgeing fights when they cant fight them selfs. my self i use to be one of the top kata guys around in the 80s but i also have a lot of fighting grands to and could put the gloves on with anybody. and thats what makes a true martial artist one that can do all. and if anybody thinks if you get into a fight and your going to start doing a kata on them well!! the katas are the foundation to start from then you build from that. but thats just my opinion and ive been in the martial arts for 40 years!!


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Offline Ghost Rider

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2010, 04:20:41 PM »
Sorry, I don’t agree with you.
A jab, cross, upper cut, hook, is different every time you use it in a fight.
It is not used the same way over and over.
If it is then there is some angling and foot work missing, and your foe is standing still. 
Working on a strike or stance is not the same as doing a form.
A pre determined pattern of multiple techniques being used in a fight sequence.
(Choreographed) so the hero always wins.

Greg Harper
senior instructor, Gumataotao Kajukenbo
Head instructor, Kajupit MMA
Sijo Emperado's personal body guard

handsofstone23

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2010, 05:33:03 PM »
I understand your point, but as creative people in a creative art we realize (I think) that just as you don't use a jab cross hook in the same way, you don't use pieces of forms in the exact order that you would or in the same application. I've seen many of grandmaster Powells applications to the palamas and I have discovered many as well that apply to MMA or self defense. Same with anyother movement we learn. Its about the concept, not simply repeating or mimicking  what you learn like a mindless machine. Why do people shadow box? Its not real combat. But that's not yhe point of it at all, it to gain the same things you gain from forms.

Offline grand master hemenes

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2010, 06:14:01 PM »
forms are the foundation in a form you have all the punches the pokes the elbow smashes all those thing now in a fight you will not do a form on someone but you will take maybethe punch maybea elbow strike out of it, it just keeps your mind sharp just like a fighter you train hard everyday to be the best some people just like to fight and thats it, and if thats all they want to do thats fine but to be a ture martial artest you need to be able to teach both and when you get your black belt you need to know both. there was a school in the 70s that all there student did was fight no forms and they were good fighter they won a lot of trofys and grands. and i ask one of there black belts why none of them did forms and he said forms we dont know any forms! and i said well how do you move up in rank and his reply was we go by how many trofys we win. now they will win grandchampion but ask your self is that a true black belt???


                                        prof.hemenes
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Offline Ghost Rider

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2010, 06:27:27 PM »
I understand and respect your points, I just don't agree with you.
But I think most of those here will agree with you and not me.
thats why they teach the forms at their school.
I am just explaining why I don't, and will not teach forms to adults unless they ask me too.
Greg Harper
senior instructor, Gumataotao Kajukenbo
Head instructor, Kajupit MMA
Sijo Emperado's personal body guard

Tim Vargas

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2010, 06:41:24 PM »
I wonder how those are ranked without *baseline* (forms) knowledge?   I have heard of a few who do not teach forms, so what are your criteria for rank (white to black)?  Is it based on how many fights you win, or how many teeth you lose, or bones are broken in training? 

I see the value in both opinions, regarding the teaching or not teaching of forms and its relation to fighting.  But what is important is the keeping Kajukenbo alive, those *roots*.  If children are taught the *roots* , why are not the adults taught the *roots*?    Since the adults are the ones who are more likely to pass on our art, how can they then teach their child students the forms if they have never learned them?  Its my opinon that the more tradition that is removed, it becomes less than what it was to begin with.   Perhaps Sijo saw the differences of opinions when he set the rule of requiring ALL of those in Kajukenbo to at least know the first Three Palama Sets/Pinians.


Tim

Offline grand master hemenes

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2010, 06:45:04 PM »
i understand and respect that, thats the way you run your school to each there own.

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Offline KajuKel

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2010, 06:51:32 PM »
I agree Ruben - no one in their right mind would fight Kata style - and I didn't think anyone made an argument for doing so.  But as you said the concepts are there; for you take and apply in as many applications as your open mind permits.

I look at the forms as a library of knowledge not all of which I may understand or even like at this point.   My teacher's job is to expose me to all of our system (forms included) not just the parts he remembers or favors - unless he is creating his own branch - then I guess he/she can do whatever he wants.

If my instructor only exposed me to things he/she favored or felt were effective - and then I did the same - and then my students go on to teach and do the same then our art loses a little bit each iteration - unless we all go explore other systems and try to build it back up.  I don't know - maybe it's better that way.  ???  But the more I go to other schools and other style seminars the greater appreciation I have for the things we already do.  Kajukenbo takes a very short, very quick, very direct path to the desired outcome - ending the opponents ability and/or will to fight.

I must admit though, most of my discoveries (light bulb moments) come bass ackwards.  I'll find that something I did worked well in a fight and when I analyze it I see it was a move right out of a form - I just didn't see it for what it was at the time I was doing the forms.  This fuels my curiosity to discover applications for other moves from the forms that seem strange or useless (looking beyond the obvious).  I find many of the light bulb moments for me come not from the individual moves themselves but applications of the transitions between the moves (where most of the "JU" lives).

My point as a Kajukenbo student is - expose me to everything the system has to offer, and I feel the duty of a Kajukenbo instructor is to do just that.
Kellen Houk
Under GM Frank Wohler
Delta Kajukenbo - Gaylord's Method
Tracy, CA
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Offline grand master hemenes

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2010, 07:03:40 PM »
your right 100 %

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Offline Ghost Rider

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2010, 07:36:19 PM »
And this is why for years I have told people Like Sijo Emperado, GM Black, GM Sotelo, GM Reyes, GM Kingi, GM Forbach and many others that I am not a martial artist.
I am (just) a fighter.
The ones that teach forms weapons and history are the martial artist’s.
To change the direction of this post I would like to ask a question.
When were the forms developed in Kajukenbo, and why?
The reason I ask is based on things I have heard.

Harper
PS
GM Reyes, I know you are reading (watching) and shaking your head.
Greg Harper
senior instructor, Gumataotao Kajukenbo
Head instructor, Kajupit MMA
Sijo Emperado's personal body guard

allen73

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2010, 08:51:03 PM »
GM Harper,

GM Powell posted a great response that I think can answer your question. The topic title is "History of our Kata and Pinyans". Just use search and it will pop up. On a side note the method of Kajukenbo I train in now doesn't include Palamas as part of the cirriculum.

Offline jeremy tkgit

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #26 on: February 19, 2010, 10:16:33 PM »
If some one does not teach forms how do your students know if they are throwing a Kajukenbo reverse punch and not a Shotokan reverse punch?

Jeremy Patterson
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Offline kfarny

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #27 on: February 19, 2010, 10:25:08 PM »
I would just like to say, with no facitiousnes, this is exactly the reason that I come back here every day. I'm glad the Ohana has a place where these discussions can happen, and where we can all teaxh and learn at the same time with an empty cup.
Kirk Farnsworth   3rd Degree,  East/West Method Tum Pai
East West Martial Arts, Master Doug Bertrand
Vancouver, Wa.

Offline Ron Baker

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2010, 07:29:56 AM »
I must admit though, most of my discoveries (light bulb moments) come bass ackwards.  I'll find that something I did worked well in a fight and when I analyze it I see it was a move right out of a form - I just didn't see it for what it was at the time I was doing the forms. 

The proverbial "a-ha" moment.
Sigung (Shihan) Ron Baker
Kajukenbo 5280 MMA Foundation
Under GM Jason Groff
Ordonez Kajukenbo Ohana

Offline Ron Baker

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Re: Extended Family Arts that Avoid Forms
« Reply #29 on: February 20, 2010, 07:32:11 AM »
I'm not sure if it's been mentioned, but isn't shadow boxing a form of kata?
Sigung (Shihan) Ron Baker
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