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Re:Can I teach?

Author Topic: Re:Can I teach?  (Read 12544 times)

Stuff

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Re:Can I teach?
« on: July 24, 2004, 10:14:51 PM »
Like badsifu said, no one can stop you from teaching the martial arts that you learn.  No one (legally)! ;)  However, like Baker said, you can’t represent your teachers system if you choose not to follow the systems teacher. :-\  So that leaves you with only two choices, create your own system using the knowledge you have or learn another system and be a representative of it.  It takes a real ego to create your own system ;D, specially if it is just a shadow of the system or systems you learned from others :o.  But if you do, you can promote yourself to Grand Master or Professor 8) and no one can stop you from doing that either (legally). ;D  What are your thoughts? ???

Offline badsifu

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Re:Can I teach?
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2004, 02:02:10 PM »
:):):):):):)
« Last Edit: August 03, 2007, 12:28:19 PM by badsifu »
Dan Tyrrell

Stuff

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Re:Can I teach?
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2004, 07:54:53 PM »
I’ve gone back and re-read everything and I don’t believe it was ever stated that you couldn’t teach what you were taught, it was said you couldn’t be a representative of the system you were taught or something like that. ::)  So, if I were to start my own system I couldn’t call it Brian’s Karate (my teacher’s system), I would need to call it something like Stuff’s Karate. ;D  Now, if I were to teach the exact same curriculum and belt structure as badsifu suggested, I would be a bit of a fraud don’t you think? :o  I mean I’m really teaching Brian’s Karate, not Stuff’s, I’m just telling everyone its mine. ;)  Now, it’s true you can't trademark or copyright a punch or a kick, so I would teach punches and kicks, but not the same routines as Brian’s Karate. :)  I would need to create my own routines (what I taught in the class) and they would need to be more than just a shadow of Brian’s Karate. :-\  Sure, you would see the influence of my past teachers in my routines.  But, these routines (what I taught in the class) would be uniquely mine, ;D otherwise I would still be teaching Brian’s Karate, but telling everybody it was mine --- Here again I would be a fraud. :o  Now if I were to tell everyone that what I was teaching was really Brian’s Karate or if you could tell by watching that it was really Brian’s Karate, I believe Brian might have legal grounds to come after me. ???

Anyway, these are my thoughts on this subject and I have nothing else to say. ;)  Have a good day.  I’m out-of-here. :)

Offline manx

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Re:Can I teach?
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2004, 11:09:33 PM »
Stuff you stated "It takes a great ego to start your own system." Well I feel it takes a ego to say this is mine and you can't use it!!Did Chow leave Mitose and not use anything?Did the Emperado brothers leave chow and not use anything?Did Tiwanak leave Palama and not use anthing?I think that they all left with a foundation.I never said I want to represent my former association . Stuff do you ever go to seminars ? People get together and exchange Ideas And the Instructors never say" You paid me, but you are forbidden to show any of your students anything I shoed you".We might as well shut all the seminars down right now! If someone feels that strongly about their art, maybe they should not teach anyone but their family members. !That way they can realy control things. Aloha!

Taz and Bronson Tiwanak

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Re:Can I teach?
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2004, 12:09:57 AM »
If you knew your history, Proffessor Chows training was a lot different from James Mitose.  Proffessor Chow created a system based on street fighting.  Chow's training and the trianing of the Emperados where the same, because together the three of them ran the infamous palama gym.  Proffessor Tiwanak was a boxer at heart and there fore his system is based on a lot of defense against a boxer/attacker who can strike with combinations.  They were very proficient in there training and extrodanary men.  If you think you are at the same caliber as these men then go right ahead and open a school.

Offline Wado

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Re:Can I teach?
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2004, 02:44:49 AM »
Stuff you stated "It takes a great ego to start your own system." Well I feel it takes a ego to say this is mine and you can't use it!!Did Chow leave Mitose and not use anything?Did the Emperado brothers leave chow and not use anything?Did Tiwanak leave Palama and not use anthing?I think that they all left with a foundation.I never said I want to represent my former association . Stuff do you ever go to seminars ? People get together and exchange Ideas And the Instructors never say" You paid me, but you are forbidden to show any of your students anything I shoed you".We might as well shut all the seminars down right now! If someone feels that strongly about their art, maybe they should not teach anyone but their family members. !That way they can realy control things. Aloha!

manx, as far as martial arts, there is nothing that says you can't teach what you want, so long as you take responsibility for what you do.

The danger has little to do with what you teach, but rather how you teach it and how well you understand it.

If you teach what others have taught you, be honest, how well do you really understand what was taught to you? Do you understand it enough to teach it to others in a manner that is true to the founder?

On the other hand, if you base your teachings on what you have learned and then modify it to work for you, then who else understands those modifications better than you? You are the founder of your own modifications, it is your system.

But take responsibility for teaching these modifications to others. How good are your modifications? Have you pressure tested them in real combat or against non-compliant opponents? Have you developed an understanding of the underlying principles that make the modified techniques work.

What principles do you base your system on? What method do you use to teach principles?

What are principles, you might ask, well in my opinion they are concepts based on truths, and in application, principles are your gross motor skills, or in other words, principles are part of techniques, but not the fine details. What are techniques? Well in my opinion, techniques are the finer details of the application of principles, such as the exact hand positions for a wrist lock or strike to a pressure point.

Are your modifications changes in technique or changes in principles or both? If your changes are just with technique, that is called a variation and there are thousands of variations for techniques. You can have a million variations, but that does not make a martial system. Only principles can make a system, so what are the principles that you desire to teach?

You speak of foundation like it is karate or boxing or fencing, but it isn't the art that is the foundation, foundation, IMO, comes from experience and the understanding of principles.

Do you feel you know your principles well enough to go it alone? If not, I would advise you to find a teacher whom is above you. You can still teach what you want, but you are not ready to go at it alone, IMHO.

W. Yamauchi
Mateo Kajukenbo
Seattle, Washington

Taz and Bronson Tiwanak

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Re:Can I teach?
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2004, 07:57:29 PM »
After reading my statement I found a typo.  The three instructers who ran palama gym were Woodrow macandlles, Joe Emperado and Marino Tiwanak.  Due to Joe's Brother opening a school in Kaimuki.  

Eric Mobley

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Re:Can I teach?
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2004, 08:05:43 PM »
SMALL BOY ! ARE YOU OUT THERE?

Offline Mark Dinkel

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Re:Can I teach?
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2006, 11:55:00 AM »
Seems to me that a point is being missed in the question of can I teach. Just because you have the legal right to do something does not mean you should exercise that right. I have seen many good students who are horrendous teachers. I have also seen some good teachers who are not so good students. So can you teach, I think that question can only be answered by the students you leave behind, irresprective of any legal rights you might have.
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Offline Stan Kristovich

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Re:Can I teach?
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2006, 04:24:40 AM »
This is a great question, as it strikes between the tradition of teaching martial arts and the legality of teaching martial arts in the modern world.

Tradition says you don't teach something without your instructor's permission.  That comes from old family-based schools (and Confucian respect for the elder male) where the master decided who would 'inherit' the school. 

Legality of the situation, especially in the Western sense, is that you pay for services -- to be taught a skill to a certain level -- and if you follow the program and succeed, you are certified, somehow, to have achieved a recognized level of proficiency (black belt).  Since the commonly accepted level at which someone can create a new school is at least black belt, there is nothing that restrains any black belt from setting up shop.  It is somewhat similar to tutoring English or any other subject -- what university can stop you from teaching English, once you've earned a degree? 

There are legal constraints to being a teacher, in many fields, but they don't exist in martial arts.  (For example, K-12 teachers need some kind of certification, but there are plenty of uncertified martial arts teacher instructing the same kids after school).  And while some instructors may try to restrain their students via non-competition clauses and other legal documents, there are really few restraints.

The martial arts have existed for thousands of years.  But the demands of fighting have changed.  If you teach people for defense purposes, are you really expert enough to give them the skills to defend themselves, in an environment that is potentially more violent than a few decades ago?  Do you know enough about crime and punishment?  And can you give them the knowledge to make the right decisions under pressure?  If not, then you are a sports coach.  Nothing wrong with that, either, as long as you are honest with yourself and your students.

Setting up your own school entails not only all of the challenges of starting and maintaining a business, which is a huge task all by itself.  It also brings the responsibility to ensure that what you are teaching is really relevant and useful to the students, in one way or another.   If not, you are collecting money for something you can't provide, which is fraud.
Aloha,
Stan Kristovich
(a Black Belt instructor [and currently on extended sabattical] in North Las Vegas, Nevada
Formerly of Stevenson Kenpo-Karate, Mililani, HI

Offline Ron Baker

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Re:Can I teach?
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2006, 03:15:13 PM »
I generally agree with instructor Kristovich.  I would only differ with respect to what may or may not be fraud.  For one to hold himself or herself out as a teacher of self defense is always going to be a matter of degree.  At least with respect to what's taught.  Teaching multiple attack defenses at a gung fu kwoon will differ from those lessons taught at a McDojo.  While the McDojo's defenses are likely going to be seriously (and dangerously) inadequate, thte teaching of those defenses isn't necessarily fraudulent.  Unethical?  Sure.   Negligent?  Arguable.  But likely not fraud.  There's a lifetime of knowledge to gain, and a huge responsibility to ensure that it's taught appropriately.

So, rather than asking can I teach, I wonder if the question should be "should I teach"?  If the answer is yes, then maybe Sigung Bishop's tag line is the best advice a would-be teacher can receive: Time Will Either Promote You Or Expose You.
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Offline Stan Kristovich

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Re:Can I teach?
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2006, 01:30:37 AM »
There's plenty of gray area, I agree.

But generally, if you take money from someone to deliver a service, and you know you can't deliver the service and you don't, it's fraud.  While I'm not a lawyer, I'd bet there are a lot of legal fees to be made if someone actually challenged many a martial arts instructor to prove that he/she is actually 'delivering the goods'.  There is a real issue as to what 'goods' the martial arts really deliver.  I've heard it said (by an instructor who charges close to $100/mo) that he didn't believe that what he taught was any good for self-defense.  But he also stresses the discipline, self-control and other character traits that martial arts build.  So is that instructor taking money for something he knows won't work, or is the martial arts school just a vehicle to get to something else?

The former is (ok, probably is) fraud, the latter, at least disengenuous, especially if the school claims to teach self-defense.  And it could prove dangerous to a student who believes that he/she is learning to defend himself/herself, instead of getting a fitness/sports/self-discipline program. 

Getting back to the college analogy, could a college get away with granting degrees in poetry writing if it only focuses on the mechanics of sentence structure, spelling and word definitions?  Probably not for long, because good colleges participate in accreditation programs.  While such programs aren't mandatory, the reviews they conduct and the accreditation they grant are major tools in ensuring that colleges provide the quality education that students pay to get.  This type of accreditation doesn't exist in the martial arts, so the burden is even greater on owners of martial arts schools, to be sure that the black belts they certify are truly capable of passing on their knowledge, because once a black belt is certified, there's not much to really stop him or her from setting up shop.

Objective accreditation would be an important step for most martial arts disciplines, including Kajukenbo, and it would ultimately create standards that would help to define the answer to both questions -- can I teach? and should I teach? -- because objective accreditation would provide a common set of tools to decide if the instructor has the education, experience and support needed to provide a quality education to his or her students.
Aloha,
Stan Kristovich
(a Black Belt instructor [and currently on extended sabattical] in North Las Vegas, Nevada
Formerly of Stevenson Kenpo-Karate, Mililani, HI

Offline Ron Baker

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Re:Can I teach?
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2006, 11:24:09 AM »
I could almost make the leap to objective accreditation.  Then I recall something that Bruce Lee said many moons ago: "Before I studied the art, a punch to me was just a punch, a kick was just a kick. After I'd studied the art, a punch was no longer a punch, a kick was no longer a kick. Now that I understand the art, a punch is just a punch, a kick is just a kick."

It just seems to me that after the punch and the kick, everything else is subjective.  At the same time, I do agree that something should be available to consumers who want to evaluate what they're buying.  But today, with martial arts being sought out for weight loss, a soccer substitute, and self-esteem-building, the knowledge that someone's not getting, doesn't matter that much.

Now, as an example of objective vs. subjective, 10 or twelve years ago, I trained with someone (one of the top-flight fighters back in the days of Nasty Anderson, Billy Blanks, Alvin Prouder, Linda Denley) who "promoted" me to black belt so long as I kept fighting for his school.  Certificate, belt, ceremony with incense--the whole bit.  Well, as it would happen, I began to yearn for martial arts knowledge.  And that was something that he was unable to deliver, and I eventually lost interest in his school.  Then again, he never advertised or held himself out as some 33rd Generation Most-Venerable Shaolin Master, rather, he craftily marketed himself as the former champion that he was.  I bought it (as did other students) and his school was successful for that purpose. 

I guess what I'm saying is that the black belts he gave me and others, were based upon good point-fighting skills and little else.  Now, could I defend myself using those point-fighting skills?  That's definitely subjective. 

OK, now I'm rambling ...




Sigung (Shihan) Ron Baker
Kajukenbo 5280 MMA Foundation
Under GM Jason Groff
Ordonez Kajukenbo Ohana

Offline Stan Kristovich

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Re:Can I teach?
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2006, 12:45:41 PM »
I agree that much of what is taught is subjective, but that is no different than different colleges' choices when teaching literature; some may focus on classics, some may focus on modern fiction, some may focus on journalism and some may attempt to provide a balanced eduction in many styles of literature.  But all can follow standards of practice, even though the content of their programs vary widely.  In my view, objective accreditation in the martial arts would function the same way.   It could answer basic questions such as:

- Does the school have a consistent policy for training instructors?  Does it even have a training program or are instructors left to learn by doing?
- Does the school have a policy to avoid taking advantange of student instructors (here I refer you to the excellent thread about 'cults' in the martial arts, which talks about common abuses)?
- Does the school have an educational / training curriculum that supports its advertised purposes?  In other words, does it teach what it says it teaches?

There are plenty of other macro issues that an accreditation program could support.  A school that received such accreditation would have been judged, by objective criteria, to have fulfilled the minimum standards of the accrediting body.  And of course, if an instructor did not want to fulfill those standards, he/she would not be obligated to follow them -- but they couldn't obtain the 'seal of approval' either. Accreditation would not delve into the details of whether or not some technique is better than others, but rather whether or not the school fulfills its stated mission, and thereby earns the cash it takes in.

To his credit, the instructor you cited below didn't try to sell himself or his training as something that he and it wasn't.  If there was an accrediting body, he might have to adjust some practices, depending upon the standards set by an accrediting body, but if he wanted to achieve an accreditation it would provide support to the school to either extend the training or make it clear to all new students that the school's mission was really to teach point-fighting skills.  Either one would be appropriate, and the school would benefit from objective review.

Regards,
Stan K
Aloha,
Stan Kristovich
(a Black Belt instructor [and currently on extended sabattical] in North Las Vegas, Nevada
Formerly of Stevenson Kenpo-Karate, Mililani, HI

Offline Train4it

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My two cents:)
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2009, 08:49:26 PM »
Hello Everyone

Anyway, I have a friend who wanted me to teach some classes at a club he belonged to.  I confess; I was interested in the idea, the club was in the town where I went to High School and I thought it would nice to see my old Alma martyr.  I had been teaching my own students for two years now and I was really having a great time. Several weeks went by and one day my friend called and informed me that he had to go out to his club and drop some papers offs and wanted to know if would ride out there with him. We hung out at the club for a while and upon leaving we decided to drive through the town on the way out, so I could see what changes had been made. As we turned onto the main drag, I noticed a Kaju school one street over from the club. I had completely forgotten it was there, it had been so long since I had been in town. However the now remembered schools location would make the final decision of not teaching at my friends club. Later on my friend asked me again what, I thought about teaching at his club. I informed him that, I would not be able to and explained why. As expected he didn’t really understand, that I was trying to be respectful to the other Instructor who was part of my Kaju family. I also informed him that it was ok that he didn’t understand that it was the way I chose to live my life. He shrugged his shoulders and shook his head. Then stated it was my loss. I choose to believe that is was my gain. You can choose to teach anything you want or anywhere you want it’s your choice. But! Ask yourself first; why do you want to teach? What ideals do you want to pass on to your students? Then do the right thing.
Shifu Jim S.
Shifu James E Sanborn Jr.