Author Topic: Chauan Fa today  (Read 30323 times)

Offline tshadowchaser

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Chauan Fa today
« on: December 15, 2002, 02:02:16 PM »
 No Matter which branch/family of Kajukenbo you belong to , how do yo feel the term Chuan Fa relates to the art as you practice it today?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »
Sheldon L. Bedell

Offline cirillo

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Re: Chauan Fa today
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2002, 10:27:00 AM »
The name, Ch'uan Fa or Fist Way, can be applied to any martial art and is as fitting as the term Kenpo or Kempo, which has a similar meaning in a different language.  In terms of how the style applies to Wun Hop Kuen Do (the style I train in), we regard it as the style that represents an earlier evolution of our style.  It was a branch that developed earlier and ultimately, through the evolution of Sifu Dacascos' development of the art, needed a different name, i.e. Wun Hop Kuen Do.  Now, not all styles that use the name Ch'uan Fa, teach the style that I am referring to, but this is primarily how we think of Ch'uan Fa as students of Wun Hop Kuen Do.  We are also aware that many earlier styles of Kung Fu in mainland China and elsewhere utilize this term in the name of their style.  

As the asker, tshadowchaser, how do you feel it relates to your art?  Your answers might also be instructive.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:12 PM by -1 »
Sifu Jeffrey D. Cirillo,  6th Degree Black belt in Wun Hop Kuen Do under GM Al Dacascos and 3rd Degree in FaChuan (Blossom Fist) under Sifu Bill Owens with over 35 years experience in the martial arts.
College Station, TX

Offline tshadowchaser

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Re: Chauan Fa today
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2002, 11:00:33 AM »
 The term relates to the art I study through the Shorin Ji Ryu Kenpo system that my instructor studied while in Oakinawa.  It was also an early name genericly given to some of the Chinese systems that I have had some studies in.
   It seems that the term Chauan Fa was used to discribe many of the systems from China.  The Family names remained hidden to the non-Chinese but because the fighting system came from the Mainland it was simply called Chauan Fa.
Shadow
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »
Sheldon L. Bedell

Offline Sifu Julian

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Re: Chuan Fa today
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2003, 12:11:42 AM »
Good Question!
I actually started training in a system called Chuan Fa that was Kajukenbo based---but added JKD, Kali, Defendo/Protecto, and Wing Chun. It was not at all related to the Kajukenbo Ch'uan Fa system.

A little about my current situation: I am currently a student in China studying Mandarin and NW Chinese Wushu. I also have a 4th Black Belt in Bushido Kempo.

For the word translated Chuan Fa (actually it should be Quan Fa in the Mandarin Pinyin system---chuan is probably from the Yale romanization or from Cantonese, as many Chinese terms that we as Westerners use are from Cantonese---but I am not positive about this) the Chinese characters are all the same---the only difference is the pronunciation in Mandarin, Cantonese, Japanese, and Korean languages. But the characters all have the same meaning:  "fist method"

Kempo or Kenpo:  Japanese
Quan Fa or Chuan Fa:  Mandarin
I am not sure about Korean or Cantonese--Anyone know?

So, now to answer the question:
I feel that my Kajukenbo (Emperado's Method) is definitely a chuan fa---because of the hard way we have continued to teach in the Midwest US. It is also very appropriate that Sijo, Prof's Dela Cruz and Dacascos used the term when they created Kajukenbo Chuan Fa by adding more Chinese Gong Fu (Kung Fu) into the existing Kajukenbo system.

I have talked to Prof. De la Cruz at the Kajukenbo Family Reunions and would love to see more of how Kajukenbo Chuan Fa is practiced today.  I know more Gong Fu was added but I am not sure about what techniques and from what styles? I would be interested in any information on that question.

Mahalo for any input you feel like giving!
Aloha!
KJKBSifu
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:01 PM by -1 »
Sigung Julian Sims
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Offline John Bishop

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Re: Chauan Fa today
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2003, 07:24:13 AM »
Fist Way or Method in the Cantonese language is "Ken Fat".
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »
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Offline sig666+

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Re: Chauan Fa today
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2003, 09:39:29 AM »
Sigung John Bishop is correct, KEMPO , read ch'uan fa in Mandarin and ken fat in Cantonese, designates a Chinese form of self-defense and self-development similar to karate. Kempo is simply the Japanese way of pronouncing Chinese ideographs for ch'uan fat. also name (chuan fa) we also have the chuan Fa Pacua that is use in the kajukenbo system represented by the 8 angles of attack in the red octagon in the original kajukenbo patch.

Kempo training traditionally consists of instruction in Buddhist philosophy, general education, and the human body and its systems, as well as training in kendo (fencing), kyudo (archery), ikebana (flower arranging), tree-climbing, swimming, horsemanship, use of the blowgun, and weaponless forms of Shao-lin kung-fu.
known in the Spirit, Mind, and Body of the kajukenbo philosophy.
 ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »

Prof. Harry Herrera

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Re: Chauan Fa today
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2003, 10:21:59 PM »
For those of you who have any questions or are just curious about the Chuan-Fa branch of the Kajukenbo, just ask, and if I don't know I can call Grand Master Al DeLa Cruz or Sijo Emperado and get you an answer.  I am always at your service.  Call me or e-mail if you need a quick answer:  

Prof. Harry Herrera
(505) 832-0773 or 550-7391
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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »

Offline sifutimg

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Re: Chauan Fa today
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2003, 10:43:16 AM »
Hello Professor Herrera,

I would respectfully like to ask some questions about Chuan Fa.  What makes Chuan Fa, Chuan Fa?  Is there specific curriculum to learn, like forms and tricks.  Are there a set of principles that are specific to Chuan Fa.  How does Chuan Fa differ from what Professor Gaylord teaches versus what is taught in the Ramos method versus what you teach?

Thank you so much for any help you can give me in understanding this branch of Kajukenbo.

In the spirit of peace and honor,
Tim
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »
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Prof. Harry Herrera

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Re: Chauan Fa today
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2003, 07:33:45 PM »
SiFu Tim,

   I presented your questions, to Grand Master Al DeLa Cruz.  He and I both agree that there is not necessarily a specific curriculum to learn, like forms and tricks, although there are some forms that we have added that were aquired from various sources.  The major difference that I see, not being real familiar with what Professor Gaylord or Ramos teach, are that we put alot of emphasis on short range techniques, as opposed to the traditional medium and long range strikes, and many of our blocks or checks are sweeping rather that the hard outward block for instance.  Chuan Fa is an ever-evolving style, just like Kajukenbo in general.  Kajukenbo is not like Shotokan for instance, where one instructor can go to any other Shotokan school and see the identical techniques being practiced in an identical manner.  Kajukenbo changes not only from instructor to instructor, but even from day to day, it is ever evolving and improving in method and technique.

Prof. Herrera
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »

Karazenpo

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Re: Chauan Fa today
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2003, 06:39:17 AM »
Hello Professor & to all,
                          Respectfully, I question as to how much Kajukenbo or any kempo related subsystem does "actually" evolve or change anymore. Imho, the bulk of evolution occurred in the 30 or so years after  the mid 40's during the Mitose/Chow/Emperado innovations. It seems to me that all self defense is based on (if I may quote Gm. Parker),"scientifically validated principles of motion." The human body has only a finite number of ways of efficiently responding to an attack which is dictated by the laws of nature, kineisiology & body mechanics. By the same token, an attacker has a limited number of ways to assault you. Everything else are just expected levels of variation of the same technique, attack or situation.  My question would be, is it our insights, perspective or plain understanding of what we are learning that actual is evolving?  And not the art itself? In other words, its always been there, we just haven't found it yet. i.e. like doing a form for many years and suddenly seeing a "new" bunkai from it that you never noticed before? Self development? I don't know, it seems to me that so many have come before us, is there really anything new out there or is it re-inventing the wheel? In fighting, after your initial defensive move if required, you're either punching/striking/kicking and grappling(standing & ground.) Wasn't that Sijo Emperado's premise in the early development of Kajukenbo? and still is? Again, my humble viewpoint on this and as always I'm very open minded and would enjoy hearing others' comment! What got me started on this thinking was that for a while everyone was becoming a "founder" and creating a "new" system and what I saw more times than not was merely cross-training and I thought,"Didn't Sijo do that in 1947?   Respectfully submitted, Shihan Joe
  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:03 PM by -1 »

Offline Rob Poelking

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Re: Chauan Fa today
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2003, 08:07:16 AM »
Shihan Joe,

In response to your observation, I have to disagree. Keep in mind that personally, I am very new to all martial arts (4.5 years). But in that time, I have had the opportunity to view video coverage of my instructor's Instructor of techniques that were handed down to us. As much as we could, we mimiced those same techniques. Yet, when we had Prof. Gary in for a seminar, he watched us perform these same techniques and then would issue instruction and they EVOLVED. Not a drastic change. Not as if we had done the technique incorrectly. Yet in his 30+ years of instruction and learning, his own techniques had been modifed or refined. A "trimming of the fat" so to speak to make already good techniques even better.

Perhaps, by evolution you mean creation of "new" techniques and that is not necessarily something we are seeing today. But, I see evolution in what we already possess refining to something better. Yes, I see our system evolving, refining, getting better.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »
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Karazenpo

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Re: Chauan Fa today
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2003, 08:42:27 AM »
Hello Rob,
                  Actually Rob, I think we are on the same page. I do agree with you and your experience with Professor Gary is a perfect example of what I'm trying to say. The martial arts world needs quality instruction like this to point the way to students to set them off into a higher level of understanding or let's say to help them "evolve" to the next level.This is what I mean't by it is our level of understanding that evolves from  the foundation that has already been laid by others. More often then not, students need prodding from quality instructors with insight & forethought to help them find their way.
 Yes, I agree in your last paragraph that there are no real "new" techniques out there anymore (that is also my point) but what I am trying to say is that I believe in evolution but it is our personal understanding or self development of the art that is actually evolving rather than the art itself because its already been laid out for us. Just my thoughts on it!              
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »

Mike Nagano

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Re: Chauan Fa today
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2003, 11:55:16 AM »
If we really look at Kajukenbo, at least from the standpoint of the Original Branch and its techniques, there is a limited amount of information (i.e. 21 punch counters, 15 grab defenses...).  Kajukenbo is a basic framework upon which other things can be added.  It was designed to EVOLVE to a degree (keeping the integrity of the basic techniques intact).  That's in part what add-libs are for.  It's like playing Mozart and putting your own personality into the music as opposed to playing it note for note as the music's written.  Improvisation!

Shotokan's Hirokazu Kanazawa was criticized for learning nunchakus and tai chi.  He felt they complemented the empty-handedness and the hardness of Shotokan.  You can train in traditional arts such as Shotokan or Aikido all around the world and be able to fit into the various classes no matter where they're taught.  Kajukenbo's different.  It allows everyone to add their own flavor to the recipe.  It's unique whereever one trains.

As The Guardian mentioned.  The evolution of Kajukenbo is designed to make it more effective.  Everyone's different.  What's effective for me is not necessarily so for someone else.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »

Karazenpo

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Re: Chauan Fa today
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2003, 04:59:58 PM »
Hello Mike, Correct me if I'm wrong but I think you are saying, if I may quote the late Mr. Parker, is that "Every kenpo black belt is a system within himself" (I think I got that right or close anyway, lol). I believe in that we all have our own perspective of the art, some of us very similar while others more diverse but all related and all as good as the person behind it. I think, though, what gets me, is many of us are sincere but others just use the term "evolution" to justify their questionable assensions to 10th degree Black Belt Grandmasters & "Founders" of  their "new" systems. For example, the core of what I teach is based on the Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu that Professor S. George Pesare brought over to Rhode Island. I teach that with Nick Cerio's Kenpo. Now, I have some Northern & Southern Shaolin sets that I got from traditional systems that I offer as optional training. I consider Sijo Victor "Sonny" Gascon as the founder of Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu, Professor Pesare as the founder of Kempo in New England directly under Sijo Gascon and the late Professor Cerio as the founder of Nick Cerio's Kenpo. However, others with my similar background are now 10th degree founders of a new kempo system. I just don't see it. I make no such claims yet I have my own individuality and perspective of kempo just like anyone else. I feel these people are intentionally misleading the public for ego and/or financial gain. Many of these so-called new systems are just a "shuffling" around of some forms and techniques, design a patch and give it an oriental sounding name and, "Presto, you too can become the next founder.  
   I'm not speaking of any of the hard working martial artists on this forum who  have proved themselves countless times over but I'm sure you guys have people in mind that you know right now who fits this bill.
   Hey, just a peeve of mine. Doesn't mean I'm right about it, just right to express it!  
                                  
                                             Respectfully, Shihan Joe
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »

Offline Mike Nagano

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Re: Chauan Fa today
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2003, 10:20:25 PM »
That's basically what I'm saying.  But, I don't necessarily mean to use the term "evolve" in a negative sense.  Rather, I mean it to describe the importance of change in Kajukenbo, not necessarily by creating something new:   Not a new system (I wholeheartedly agree with you here), nor a "new" technique, but by adjusting something or adding something in order to make techniques more effective and unique to each individual.

For example, a very very basic technique in Shotokan is to step back into a deep forward stance and down block a front kick then return with a reverse punch to the abdomin.  I'm not a big guy, and I've got a fair reverse punch, but if someone the size of Butterbean comes charging at me with a front kick, doing a down block/reverse punch isn't going to do anything but get me killed!  Kajukenbo allows for changes to be made to make such techniques more effective for me (such as a kick to the knee....).

Many traditional styles try and make the individual fit the system.  Styles such as Kajukenbo, though basic techniques are learned, they are learned to give students a basic structure from which to work.  Individuality takes over from there.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »
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